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Janey

I have the marriage cert of Wilkes Herbert and Sarah Cocker (Couker). I would need your personal email address to send it for your scrutiny, I think, unless there is some other way. But the father's name is really just a squiggle. But some people are good at reading squiggles, so do let me know if you are prepared to have a look.

Best wishes

Margaret

You're on your own, Margaret.

My comment clearly meant -- if none of us can find Wilkes Herbert **** despite the very considerable time and effort that I, for one, have devoted to the job **** then maybe Joe Cocker can. What you would call a joke. If I need a lecture, I'll ask for one.

"I thank you for your contributions thus far, but actually you have not found me anything that I did not already have."

How nice of you to tell us once we spent time "finding it".

Btw --

"Selina/Janey, the marriage is Cocker, Couker on the cert, I did say that."

-- I let it go at the time, but: NO, you did not say that. Not until the two of us had wracked our brains and wrung it out of FreeBMD and asked you. (That's what I was doing, among other searches, while Selena was posting and you were answering her question, back on page 1.)

I'm actually very excellent at reading squiggles, and particularly at deciphering antique handwriting. Oh well, eh?

well what a carry on!!!! I only mentioned Joe Cocker for a bit of light entertainment and certainly never meant it to cause a problem - lighten up is the word here

as far as I am aware, Janey is without doubt the best researcher on these boards - she finds stuff no one else can and she seems to have done stirling work on this thread as she has done on others

one certainly does not expect to find unpleasantness on the research boards - that is usually reserved for Chat

It seems I had the wrong perception as to how much information people would want to have "up front" in order to find Wilkes Herbert. I have tried to reply as quickly as possible to requests for further information that I already have, and apologise if people have spent unnecessary time looking.

I have even more on the Coukhams if that is needed (including the fact that Sarah Ann Herbert is living with them in 1851):

Name: Sarah Ann Herkest
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Sheffield

Civil parish: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: Sheffield Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 61
Household Members: Name Age
William Coukhom 67
Martha Coukhom 61
Thos Moseley 36
Elizabeth Moseley 27
Emile Moseley 6
Sarah Ann Herkest 3

My assumption is that Elizabeth Moseley is the daughter of William Coukham (Couckom), sister of Sarah (Herbert). It does not help that the census says she is the Coukham's grand-daughter (which she may well be).

In 1841 William Mosley is also with the Coukhams, but with a wife Sarah:

1841 England Census
about Wm Cockham
Name: Wm Cockham
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1785
Gender: Male
Where born: Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Sheffield
Hundred: Strafforth and Tickhill (South Division)
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: Sheffield Park
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Cockham 56
Martha Cockham 50
James Cockham 23
Thomas Cockham 16
Samuel Cockham 11
Thos Mosley 26
Sarah Mosley 26
Sarah Ann Mosley 1

My first thought was that Sarah Mosley was the daughter of the Coukhams. However there is a possible death for her in Mar 1846 (Moseley), whereas Sarah would seem to turn up with William Turner in 1851. And death of Sarah Ann Mosley Sep 1844.

Many thanks

Margaret

I thought about Janey's suggestion that Wilkes Herbert might be William Turner. It might seem to have been a strange suggestion, but I have had family members who got fed up of people getting their names wrong, so changed them. And I have Joseph Dalorzo who became Joseph Roome.

I can find an IGI entry for William Turner, bap 27 April 1923 in Kings Langley, Hertforshire, parents Joseph and Sarah, siblings Elizabeth, John, Thomas and Sarah Ann. I cannot find any of the family in 1841. There are several possible marriages of William Turner in Hertfordshire.

Don't think this leads me to Wilkes Herbert though.

Margaret

Who is the other witness to the marriage?

I don't actually pay much attention to who posts what.

So I had forgotten my singular success with Joseph Dallorzo/Roome / that it had anything to do with you.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1154491

It's a wonderful wander among the twists and turns of censuses and how to find people doing their best to hide (with Ancestry aiding and abetting them).

Speaking of Ancestry, you have reproduced census records here with errors on them - it would be wise to make corrections at Ancestry. Anyone else looking for the person will then be able to find them, and also find you. I have met two significant distant cousins that way, when they contacted me as a result of one minor and one major correction I made there.

People changed surnames to hide from the army (my grx2 grandfather), creditors (his sister's husband) ... or to revert to what may have been their real surname after having a stepfather or such ... it's always wise to investigate. In this case, there isn't a lot of similarity between the two men, so I wouldn't adopt that as the best hypothesis, fond though I am of wild theories.

Hi Selina

It is definitely Hudson (surname) and just an initial, which looks like J.

Margaret

Hi Janey

Ah, it was you who sorted Dallorzo/Roome, I did not realise that (to anyone else reading this, it isn't relevant to Wilkes Herbert).

Yes, I have a James Weaver (White, White Weaver) who changed his name cos he supposedly deserted from the army and then wanted to re-join. We tend to think everyone conformed to normality - but they didn't. Which is why I welcomed your "wild theory" approach - though as you say, unlikely in this case. I might come back to you for James White Weaver another day, you seem to have a bent for finding the obscure.

I have already reported the errors to Ancestry (amongst many others in the past - like the 2-year old child who was a bar attendant in Wakefield) - and don't get me onto the 1911 census!

Folks, just noticed I referred to William Mosely, it should be Thomas Mosley. William is William Turner - I am not helping myself.

If we have hit a brick wall on Wilkes Herbert, so be it. Pity as he is a ggg grandfather, not just a sibling.

Any more bright or seemingly daft ideas from anyone?

Best wishes

Margaret

No bright ideas, only can suggest you get Wilkes daughter's birth certificate to see if it throws anything up, maybe a different first name or middle name for Wilkes.

Hi Selina

I assume you mean Sarah Ann Herbert - I already have it, that is what led me to Wilkes Herbert being her father, and Sarah Cokeham mother. Otherwise I would never had heard of Wilkes Herbert. Incidentally, it is Wilks with no "e" on her birth cert. He is a Cutter (or Cutler - common job in Sheffield), the child was born at 20 New Street, Sheffield, mother's address. Born 8 May 1847, reported by Sarah Herbert, mother, 25 May 1847, Sheffield Park District. In case anyone looks this up, there is a Sheffield Park somewhere down South. This is Sheffield, Park, Yorkshire.

I am now going to try burials for Wilkes Herbert. Not looked for any in Sheffield before, not sure when the Municipal Cemetery opened, perhaps earlier than some more rural ones, and not sure how responsive the City Council is.

Love to all

Margaret

Aha, another tidbit -- cutler (somebody who makes cutlery? I dunno!)

I'd tried for WH in1881 using blade and forger (which looked rather odd when I typed it ... forger, not a wise thing to confess to the census) to no avail.

So I just tried searching for Herbert, occupation cut* ... also to no avail. It did find me a butcher, though!

Not likely he was still around in 1881 I guess, but always worth trying what tools there are at hand.

WILKS is the spelling on his marriage as well, so I'd take that as how he spelled it, with someone else responsible for the WILKES in 1841. Or it was just random, depending on who was literate in the vicinity and what they decided on.

Just so you know, I spent some time searching in 1851, in particular for daughter Sarah by the birth details from 1861, with mother Sarah and father Wil* (to cover both options). The more details that can be included the better, and doing that w/o a surname, surnames being so oft mistranscribed, can work wonders.

If she'd been with them, that might have found her, even as whatever she was mistranscribed as! But ... if I'd known she wasn't with them ...

So what we don't know is whether Sarah Sr was with Wilks, William or no one in 1851. Or hey, someone else! And that is actually a total possibility, and something you might just plain never know.

Hi Janey

The Wilkes (with an "e") is the spelling on the marriage cert of Sarah Ann Herbert to William Couckham, and he also is Wilkes (Herberts) on the 1841 census. Yes a cutler was indeed someone who made cutlery - Sheffield being renowned for making stainless steel cutlery in the 1800s. Various occupations arise such as Table blade forger, Knife forger, blade forger, women seem to have been spoon forgers (?), don't know who did the forks, probably 5-year olds! On marriage of Sarah Ann Herbert, her father Wilkes is a Pen Blade forger, which apparently means he made those combination sets that include hooks to get stones out of horses hooves. I can't be certain on that, just what I have read.

Almost everyone in Sheffield in the mid-late 1800s was employed in the steel industry, with cutlery being the major area. Unless they were Ag Labs, which plenty were. No upmarket employment for our lot then!

Well, Janey, we are running out of ideas. Best I can do now is try to trace current family and see if they can shed any light, but 1860 is a long time ago, so unlikely.

Thanks for trying.

I'll find the bugger somehow - and let you all know when I do.

Love

Magaret

Off to bed. Now 2.20 a.m. UK time.

Regards

Margaret

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had Sarah's birth certificate. I thought this because you said b1848 and the registration was 1847.

Selina, no worries. I said 1848 cos that is what all the census records on Ancestry show her as. Difficult to know how precise to be.

Good new is today I have made contact with another Coukham so another possible source of information.

I think we have exhausted Wilkes Herbert now, and he has exhausted the rest of us! Cemeteries here I come.

Thanks to all.

Margaret

There are 2 Wilkes Herberts coming up on White Pages (America). Anybody any idea how I access them?

Margaret

? I get one:

http://www.whitepages.com

I ask for first name Wilkes, last name Herbert, and there it is, in Florida.

Oh, except that underneath, it lists two people with the surname Wilks, one of whom has given name Herbert.

Odd just the one, because a search for given name Herbert, last name Wilkes turns up several more.

I don't know what your results are, but if that's one of them, I think it's a mirage.

Hi Janey

I can now only find one also. Didn't notice that the family members have the surname Wilks. Wondered if the Americans switched the names, but tried a person I know in the USA and he was listed as expected. Like you say, a mirage.

Margaret

I think these sites throw up anything that might make you think there's a match, so you can then be got to follow the links to "find Wilkes Herbert in property records! do credit search for Wilkes Herbert!" etc etc -- all of which, of course, cost money. ;)

The online directories for the UK, Canada, Australia don't do that, but all of them in the US do, I've found.

Of course, there could just have been a mistake made by the phone company when it published the info. ;)