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1891 Census for ref.

Name: George McCallum
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Balfron, Stirlingshire
Registration Number: 477
Registration district: Drymen
Civil parish: Drymen
County: Stirlingshire
Address: Tent
Occupation: Ag Lab
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 45
Line: 9
Roll: CSSCT1891_147
Household Members: Name Age
George McCallum 27
Mary McCallum 19

1901 Census

Name: George McCallum
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relationship: Son-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Balfron, Stirlingshire
Registration Number: 497
Registration district: Kilmaronock
Civil parish: Kilmaronock
County: Dumbartonshire
Address: Catterloan
Occupation: Ag Labourer
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 8
Line: 20
Roll: CSSCT1901_170
Household Members: Name Age
Ann McCallum 65
Robert Stewart 55
George McCallum 26
Helen McCallum 24
George McCallum 4 mo
George McCallum 38
Mary McCallum 28
Annie McCallum 8
George McCallum 6
Andrew McCallum 3
Isabella McCallum 1
Agnes Hamilton 46
James Smith 26

Annie was from Kilmaronock, Dumbartonshire not Kilmarnock (Ayrshire)

I have all that side of the family!!

Where did you find Isabella McCallum on the 1901 Census? I have the Census and it ends at Andrew McCallum!! Yeah you are right I just double checked the Birth Cert and she was born in Dumbarton.

George and Mary were married on the04/11/1890 in Kilmarnock Dumbarton! George was 26 and Mary was 18.

I think back then Kilmarnock was in the Dubarton district, but now it comes under Ayrshire. There is only one place called Kilmarnock and it is situated in Ayrshire. I have checked with google maps and there is no Kilmarnock in Dumbarton!!

Hi Gary it's not Kilmarnock that was in Dumbartonshire it's Kilmar O nock you won't find it on modern maps as it doesn't exsist any more.
I told you this before.....I thought you had got the different spelling but obviously not......sorry that sounds cheeky didn't mean it to

Gary, have you checked the 1871 census image on scotlandspeople to see if William's age has been mistranscribed? Also, you mention that the 1901 ends at Andrew. Have you looked at the image of the next page?

Kilmarnock is parish # 597.
Kilmaronock is parish # 497.
Kilmaronock runs along the SE shore of Loch Lomond

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1358233

Garry

The census records I posted were from Ancestry.co.uk There are a lot of mistranscriptions and unlike the English ones you can't look at the original image for the Scottish ones. Scotlandspeople have a monopoly on that!! Nevertheles it is still quite useful to find the census on Ancestry. I wondered if it was because I was using Ancestry that I couldn't find William and Isabella on earlier census records.

I checked the OPR's for the whole of Scotland from 1854 (the year before compulsory registration began back to 1844 using both the brides name and the grooms name and I could not find a marriage for them. I also used the show similar spellings function for each search and still no luck.

As has been said before, only marriages that were entered into the Old Parish Registers will be indexes and catalogued. This off course depended on the dilligence of the local minister or parish priest. Although it is true that most of the records on the OPR's are for The Church of Scotland, some other denominations opted in to maintain a register, even some (but not very many) Roman Catholic Parishes.

So just because it was not found does not mean it did not take place. The birth record for George McCallum on 26/02/1864 gives the place and date of the parents marriage as 1853 May Stirling.

One thing to consider is that if they were married in 1853 and he was born in 1841 as you said and she was 10 years older, then he would have only been 12 and she would have been 22 when they married. Boys could marry at 12 in Scotland until 1923 but he would have needed permission to marry. Perhaps due to those circumstances (if correct) then they just claimed they were married when in fact they were not. Something else to think about.

The birth for Annie McCallum on 24 July 1867 at Auchtertring (? not too clear) in the Parish of Drymen has the correct parents. It says the marriage took place 1853 May Denny (just outside Stirling).

I thought I would look for the deaths of William and Isabella. I think I found them and realised that in your first post you maybe gave the wrong year of birth for William (i.e. 1841)

I found

Death of Isabella McLaren McCallum, married to William mcCallum on 15 February 1892 at Gartness Road, Drymen aged 58 years. Father William McLaren, Horn Spoon Maker (deceased). Mother Betsy McLaren m.s. Stewart (deceased). Registered by George McCallum Son.

Death of William McCallum, Pauper (formerly a Basket Maker) Widower of Isabella McLaren on 15 February 1903 at Combination Poorhouse Dumbarton aged 74 years. Father William McCallum, Basketmaker (deceased). Mother Grace McCallum m.s. Stewart (deceased). Registered by William McCallum Son.

From these details it would seem that William was born c1831 and Isabella c1834, and not the 1841 and 1831 from the first post. So in 1853 for their marriage William would have been 22 and Isabella 19, which makes more sense.

Been interesting, searching. Is there anything in the Scottish records that you want me to particularly check for you.

Thomas - a correction to "Boys could marry at 12 in Scotland until 1923 but he would have needed permission to marry"

Actually, the situation was that: Before 1929, Scots law followed Roman law in allowing a girl to marry at twelve years of age and a boy at fourteen, without any requirement for parental consent.

http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/regscot/getting-married-in-scotland/what-was-and-is-the-minimum-age-for-marriage-in-scotland.html

England had the same age limits until (I think) 1926, but there parental permission was required for an under 21 to marry (excepting widows/widowers). The age was raised to 16 in both jurisdictions, and no change re parental consent was made.

thanks mgnv, I was trying to remember from my exams. You are right I should have referred back to our website first.

Thomas

Thank you for taking time out to have a look at this for me.

This does seem to make a lot more sence!! I was going by the 1871 Census and that is where I got there ages from! So it looks like this could have been Wrong? I will do a little more reaserch to see if this will tie in with what i have so far.

Aileen

I think you did point this out to me before, but I was so wraped up in searching for the marrage i must have over looked what you had pointed out to me!! Thank you again for correcting me.

Potty

I will have a closer look on the Census! I wasn't aware that I could view a second page on the family name...I am really new to all of this.

MGNV

Thank you for the Map!!

Rootgatherer

Once again you are a Star!!

Thomas Once again Thanks for the Lead,I'll get to work on it and see what i come up with, I have a sneaky feeling that I have came accross this before and dismissed it.....


Cheers Guys

Garry

I've Just had a look at the Origonal Birth Cert for My Great Grandmother Annie McCallum 1892 and as I was Corrected it does State Kilmaronock!! I can't beleive i have overlooked this small but obvious detail....

Thomas..

This seems to be my William,my G,G,G,Grandfather..I have just Checked William Jr's Birth Cert b1856. And on his Birth Cert it does state that His father William was a Basket Maker!! I am happy to go ahead and add this as fact to my family tree,Thank you very much for your help!!

Can I ask where you found the Info on them; as We all have been scratching our heads for the last Few weeks trying to find them??

I can now hopefully try and track down exactly where they were married!!

I have taken one Valueble lesson from this today......Never take the Census records at face value..LOL!!!

P.S.MGNV

Thank you for the link to the church,I can't beleive that one of my anscestors were married there...

I have only one thing that is still playing on my mind!!

On the 1871 Census the William I was researching states that he was 30 years old!!! It also states that he was a basket maker and that he was born in Kilfman Argyleshire!! This would mean that his YOB was in 1841. This is why I came to the conclusion that he was born in that year.

If I go back to the 1851 Census i can see a William McCallum Born in Kilfman Argyleshire age 10, This would also mean that he was born in the year 1841.

It also states that his Dad was called Donald McCallum and his mum was called Betsy McCallum. It also states that he had a brother called Niel McCallum.

Now these two dates tie in with each other. Doe's anyone think i have been looking at the wrong WIlliam & Isabella McCallum?

If Thomas Is right then the parents he has found for William are different to the ones i found!!

Garry

Remember that the details on a death certificate are only as good as the informant's knowledge. The chances are that William and Isabella's children never KNEW their grandparents and so may have got their names wrong.

Interesting that both Grandfathers were named William (same as the father) and one was a basket maker (same as the father) and that both grandmothers had the maiden surname Stewart!

Another thought.

As Thomas has found William's death certificate for you, you now know that he died in the Combination Poor House in Dumbarton. It may be that he claimed poor relief to gain access to the Poorhouse. If the records have survived they are most likely in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow. A 'phone call to the Mitchell would confirm if they hold these records. If Wiliam did make a claim, he may have given his own personal details and so it may be more accurate. He may have given details of his late wife's parentage too.

Garry, a couple of tips that might help you.

Families on two pages of the census - on English censuses the end of each household is usually shown by // after the last person in each household, so if that is there, you can assume that the family is continued on the next page. Not sure if the Scottish census follows the same format, but you should be able to check that on a census image.

A tip to help save some credits on scotlandspeople - familysearch site has lots of Scottish records, both before and after civil registration started. You can search there for free and if you find something of interest, you can then bring the image up on scotlandspeople. When searching on familysearch for names beginning with Mc or Mac, if nothing comes up try leaving a space between Mc/Mac and the rest of the name.

By the way, the parish in Argyll is KilFINAN not KilfMAN.

Hope this helps

WHAT is Wm'.s occup on George's b and m.certs?

If you go to the church pic I gave, and click 1 square NE at top right, you're right in Drymen.
(The blue grid lines on the map are 1km apart).

I don't remember sending you a map URL, but there are county maps showing parishes at:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/

Potty - Scottish censuses follow the same convention regarding ends of h/h's. Sometimes a single line seperates distinct h/h's within the same dwelling, and a double line ends the dwelling.