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The name was not necessarily mis-transcribed in 1861....they may just not have been on it....if they were "on the road"
Traveling families very often inter-married ......as did families in small villages.
You may never find a birth cert for William....he may not have been registered.

Hi Guys

Sorry to drag this post back up again, but i was reading through it this morning and scince last posting this I Have learned that Rootgetherer was right and there was a marrage of 1st cousins. George & Annie McCallum.

I am still trying to understand how all of the connections are made as I have Two Familys my McCallum and Stewart that have married in to each other. The same family have married in to each other Three times all Cousins. Because of this it is very confusing. To make things worse they were Tinkers/Gypsies and William had Senile decay so everything is really scetchy on the Censuses. To make things worse they lived between Killearn,Balfron,Drymen,Fintry,St.Ninians and the Kilmaronorck in Dumbarton area.

I can't confirm Williams Date or Place of birth all i have is one census (1871) That states Kilearn. And I can't find any of them on the 1861 census,so i'm guessing that the name has been miss Transcribed.

I feel like banging my head of the wall...LOL!!

Garry.

F.A.O: Thomas can you check your PMs

Garry

Cheers Guys.

It's been mentioned that most pre-1855 OPRs are CofS. In 1855, the type of ceremony was recorded: e.g., After Banns According to the Forms of the Scottish Episcopal Church/Church of Scotland/etc.

Marrs in STI/SCT 1855:
----------------------
CofS 265=45% 8879=45%
Free 103=18% 4665=24%
UPsb 118=20% 2952=15%
Epis 1= 0% 350= 2%
RC 63=11% 1826= 9%
Other 35= 6% 923= 5%
Irreg 0= 0% 9= 0%
----------------------
Tot 585 19680

[First detailed annual report of registrar-general of births, deaths and marriages, Scotland Page 24]

http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/PageBrowser?path=Browse/Registrar%20General%20(by%20date)/1851-1860&active=yes&mno=624&tocstate=expandnew&tocseq=5700&display=sections&display=tables&display=pagetitles&pageseq=first-nonblank

Garry

Statutory registration did not begin until 1855 in Scotland. Prior to that SOME events were recorded in the Old Parish Records (OPRs) but you must remember that not all were! Most of the events recorded in the OPRs are Church of Scotland records. Not all Scots were Church of Scotland! It is possible that William and Isabella were married in a different church and so their marriage doesn't appear in the OPRs - it doesn't mean that they weren't married.

If I were you, I would be looking to see if the Dumbarton poor relief records have survived. If William claimed poor relief, which he probably did to get into the Poorhouse, you may be surprised at the amount of detail some of these records hold. For example, my Great grandmother, a Glaswegian married an Irishman in Tipperary but every time she came home to visit her mother, she claimed her husband had deserted her and claimed poor relief. From these records, I was able to get not only the date of her marriage but the name of the church and the priest who married them. It also gave the names of her in-laws and the ages of all her children (all born in Ireland) and the names of their spouse and how many children they had!

So I think you really must investigate these records if they are available.

I think it's time to put this to a close......

First of all thank you to everyone that has helped me research William and Isabella!! I couldn't have done it without you guys..

..........................................MY CONCLUSION...........................................................

Going by all the evedence that we have gatherd i am nearly 100% sure that they were not married. To start with I have checked Scotlands people,RootsWeb,Genforum,Find my past and Googled it endlesly and I have found nothing.

I have came to this Conclusion from all of their kids birth records. Between William (his First born) and Annie,their Birth Certs states that the parents were married in Stirling in the month of May! On one Birth Cert it states that the marrage was in Denny. This is probibly untrue as they didnt seem to get to Denny untill between 1867 and 1871 and they had 4 Kids before they got there!

When we get to Duncan and Johns Birth certs they both state that the parents were Married in Dumbarton and not Stirling, It also states that they were married in the Month of April and not May. Going by this i beleive that they were not married and they were only stating that they were for the sake of the Birth Certs.

Can I note that John Died at only 6 days old from Suffication and Duncan died when he was only 1 month old. His death was not Certified, I don't know why this would happed (If anyone could shed some light on this that would be great)

Here is where I have traced his place of living:

Born:1829 place is Not confirmed as I cannot find a Birth Cert,According to the 1871 Census he was born in Kilfman,Argyleshire.
1856: he is in Kilearn - Birth of William
1861: Balfron - Birth of Mary
1864: Balfron - Birth of George
1867: Drymen - Birth of Annie
1871: Denny - Birth of Duncan
1873: Balfron - Birth of John

1879: the Family are possibly all still in balfron as William Jr gets married (can i note that under Williams name on the Marrage cert George's name apperas, this might indicate that William his father was not around)

1890: Annie gets Married in Balfron.

The Kids all seem to be still living in Balfron.

1892: Isabella dies in Drymen

1903: William dies in a poor house in Dumbarton and he is registerd as a Pauper!!

This could mean Two things. William Could possibly not have been around after his last son Died in 1873 or He could have moved to Dumbarton after his Wife/Partner Isabella Died in 1892.

The only thing I Can't understand is that I cannot find any Birth Cert of William and there is no trace of him before he pops up in the Census in 1871.(if any one could help me with this I would be very greatfull)

Isabella: I also cannot find her Birth and there is no trace of her before she pops up in the 1871 Census in Denny.

Would any of you guys have an explination for this?

Garry

Not only has this thread helped me trace some of my family members, but it has gave me a fantastic insite into Genealogy and how to understand how it all works!!

I am going to use this thread for reference and guidence

Thanks Guys

The margin annotation does indeed refer to the Register of Corrections Etc. (RCE). In Scotland certain types of death have to be notified to the Procurator Fiscals Office in the event that the cause of death changes due to an inquiry or inquest.

Things such as;
Notifiable diseases....Smallpox, Anthrax etc,
Industrial diseases......Compression Sickness, Asbestosis,
Zoonotic diseases.........Rabies, Wiel's disease
A death at home.
Found dead
Death of a baby
Death from a fall
Road Traffic accidents
Poisoning
Suicides
Murder
and others , all may have the cause of death changed after an inquest.

So that the family can go ahead and arrange a funeral, the medical examiner may write "pending further investigation", "Pending toxicology", "Pending laboratory studies" . The certificate will be issued with this on it.

If an inquest is held and a new cause of death is ascertained, then the Registrar cannot just alter the original page which is an historical document. Instead the original register page is annotated (old records in the left hand margin, newer records in the top left hand corner of the last Space on the register page). The annotation instructs the Registrar that before an extract can be issued then the RCE page referring to that entry must be looked out and the instructions given followed. The instruction may be " In cause of death insert A. or substitute B with C. Or it may even say to put the result of the inquest on the back of the extract.

Today this is still the RCE register but it now stand for the Register of Corrected Entries.

after an inquest the family can replace the original extracts with those showing the corrected details.

And here endeth today's lesson. These things are handy to know when researching.

The RCE can also be used to change details e.g mother's maiden name, occupation, address etc. If the informant gave wrong information at the time of registration, and this is pointed out to them by a relative and they can then provide subsequent proof of the correct details, then they can apply to the Registrar General for a change. An RCE is drawn up and the original entry annotated accordingly. RCE's apply to all registrations not just deaths.

Tom

Garry
It sound like it says "see register of corrected entries". From memory, I think you will see a red button that says RCE. If you click on that, it will cost you one credit to read the correction.

Thomas

I've just pulled up Isabellas Death from Scotlands People and it has something Written in the margin. It's too faint for me to make out!! It says something along the Lines of "see Reg of con ?? Vol 1 ??11 ??26 1892"

Can you make any Sence of This?

Garry

Thanks Thomas you've been a great help!!

Garry

When I put

"I found

Death of Isabella McLaren McCallum, married to William McCallum"

I was quoting from Isabella's death registration. It only says in column 1 if they are Single or Married. If married it gives the name of the spouse but not where they were wed.

Only you can decide from the information being supplied, if this is the right person. I suspect like many of my ancestors that they may never have married but told the registrar that they had each time they registered a child, otherwise the word "illegitimate" would have been entered on the record. Or maybe they did wed and the local minister or priest just didn't enter it in the records.

My own Grandfather registered the first of his 2 children with a date of marriage despite the fact that they never married until just before the birth of their third child and this was only in the late 1920's. As has been said many times before on this forum the register details are only as good as the person giving the information. Even now when I am registering a death and the informant is vague, I can guarantee that a month down the line they will be back to tell you that auld auntie Jeanie says I got my grandad's middle name or job wrong and can you please change the record.

Thanks Guys!!

Thomas, Do you have a place of marrage for William and Isabella? And Can you see William on the 1871 and 1851 Census? Do you think I am on the right Person?

Thomas - Might Annie's pob=Auchentroig in Drymen psh?

Search for 254500,693500 at http://www.streetmap.co.uk/
Zoom by two bars longer.
It looks like it's a small hamlet 5km N of Balfron

PS - thanks for the occup check

I checked the Birth and Marriage entries for George. On his birth his father's occupation is given as Basket Weaver and on his marriage he is an Agricultural Labourer.

Garry, I have access to all Scottish BDM and now Civil Partnership Records for Scotland. Also Old Parish Records and other Scottish records as I work with them. So the information I give comes direct from BDM registrations or Old Parish Register records. Some times they are very faded and in that instance when I quote I will usually say. As has been said before the register records are only as accurate as the information given by the informant at the time of the event. Sometimes as has also been said children when registering parents or grandparents details can sometimes get details mixed up. That is why it is best to coroborate information from other records.

WHAT is Wm'.s occup on George's b and m.certs?

If you go to the church pic I gave, and click 1 square NE at top right, you're right in Drymen.
(The blue grid lines on the map are 1km apart).

I don't remember sending you a map URL, but there are county maps showing parishes at:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/

Potty - Scottish censuses follow the same convention regarding ends of h/h's. Sometimes a single line seperates distinct h/h's within the same dwelling, and a double line ends the dwelling.

Garry, a couple of tips that might help you.

Families on two pages of the census - on English censuses the end of each household is usually shown by // after the last person in each household, so if that is there, you can assume that the family is continued on the next page. Not sure if the Scottish census follows the same format, but you should be able to check that on a census image.

A tip to help save some credits on scotlandspeople - familysearch site has lots of Scottish records, both before and after civil registration started. You can search there for free and if you find something of interest, you can then bring the image up on scotlandspeople. When searching on familysearch for names beginning with Mc or Mac, if nothing comes up try leaving a space between Mc/Mac and the rest of the name.

By the way, the parish in Argyll is KilFINAN not KilfMAN.

Hope this helps

Another thought.

As Thomas has found William's death certificate for you, you now know that he died in the Combination Poor House in Dumbarton. It may be that he claimed poor relief to gain access to the Poorhouse. If the records have survived they are most likely in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow. A 'phone call to the Mitchell would confirm if they hold these records. If Wiliam did make a claim, he may have given his own personal details and so it may be more accurate. He may have given details of his late wife's parentage too.