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the chances are that if he was in Emery Hills Almshouse then he was born in that area as people were often sent back to be a charge on their birth parish

Hi Paula,

What I am trying to say is that there was another Richard Long born in Westminster c1801/1802 who was an Orris weaver and was just about at an age when he could have been the father of Henry.

The one you have on 1861 in the Alms House is most certainly the one with wife Mary and Henry and the others on 1841 and there is a 22 year difference which means that the Richard in the Alms house would have been old enough to marry Mary Fry in 1800 and father a Richard around 1801?

Richard + Mary are therefore equaly qualified to be either parents or Grandparents to Henry

This could, of course, be a complete 'red herring' but I still feel that both possibilites are there ?

Best of luck with it - I will see if I can find anything else for you.

Dea x

Thanks Ann and Dea for your replies.

I understand what you mean Dea but I can't find anything to tie in with this

I only know that on all the census for the whole of the Long family they are always born Westminister Middx. or in the case of my 2 x Grandfather Pimilico same district.

I am not sure how I would confirm any of these details?

I wish they started the census a lot earlier than 1841!

Thanks Paula

Just back from work so good to see progress made

Thought

Have you tried Weavers company for apprenticeship records?

I was looking for Lydia 1816 but came up with this

could be interesting


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LYDIA ELIZA LONG Pedigree
Female


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Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 25 JAN 1852 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England

Death:
Burial:


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Parents:
Father: RICHARD LONG Family
Mother: JANE


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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.


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Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

C062361

wonder if this is connected

1841 Address: Sander's Court, St John The Evangelist, Westminster
LONG, Richard M 35 1806 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Richard M 15 1826 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Mary F 16 1825 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Lydia F 11 1830 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Alfred M 9 1832 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Euphemia F 8 1833 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Charlotte F 5 1836 Middlesex

1841 Address: St Martin Street, St Martin In The Fields, Suffolk Street, Westminster
CARNEY, Lett M 30 1811 Ireland VIEW
CARNEY, Mary Ann F 25 1816 Middlesex VIEW
CARNEY, James M 7 1834 Middlesex VIEW
CARNEY, William M 2 1839 Middlesex VIEW
CARNEY, Mary Ann F 4 1837 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Henry M 30 1811 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Sarah F 30 1811 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Mary F 9 1832 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Lydia F 7 1834 Middlesex VIEW
LONG, Martha F 2 1839 Middlesex VIEW
DAY, William M 55 1786 VIEW
DAY, Sarah F 50 1791 VIEW
DAY, Mary F 15 1826 Middlesex VIEW
BLACKWELL, Ebenezer M 30 1811 Middlesex VIEW
BLACKWELL, Ann F 25 1816 VIEW
BLACKWELL, Frederick M 3 1838 Middlesex VIEW
BROAD, William M 20 1821 VIEW
FURS, Henry M 25 1816 VIEW
HALE, Martha F 40 1801 VIEW
HALE, Fanny F 9 1832 Middlesex VIEW
HALE, Alfred M 2 1839 Middlesex VIEW

No this Henry is a Clark

Thanks Christine.

They could be related but I don't know whether I am being a bit slow here but I cannot see for the life of me how I would make a connection?

I must admist I am getting a bit fed up with it now!

I appreciate all the input from everyone. I really need to try and find out how to make a connection to move backwards further with this line of the family.

Many thanks

Paula

My suggestions would be to find out if there are any records for the almshouses and my second would be to get in touch with the weavers company re apprenticesips.

Thanks Christine will try and do as you suggested


Regards Paula

PS I have just spoken to Westminister City Ciouncil and they are having a look to se if they have an Archive Reocrds. They are also checking for apprenticeship records. What they said was that in th late 1700's the family may have paid for the apprenticeship to a Orris Weaver and in that case the family would have held the Indentures for this. If it was paid by the Charity they may have details - it all depends on the circumstance of the family at the time of the apprenticeship.

That seems the right way to go Paula,

I hope you get somewhere with this.

Dea x

I just took a poke at the National Archives to see whether there might be any relevant records.

On a search for

"orris weaver" long

These are the possibly relevant results -- they all relate to insurance policies:


Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/515/1058555
Insured: William Long, 27 Old Rochester Row, Tothill Fields, orris weaver Other property or occupiers: Nicholson. [Guildhall Library, Records of Sun Fire...] Date: 1827.
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives

I gather Tothill Fields is in Westminster. A relation, maybe?



Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/498/1005744
Insured: John Tarrant and Edward Bartlett in trust for Mary the wife of James Probatt Other property or occupiers: Artillery Place Tothill Fields (Long orris weaver; Cleave carpenter); 32 Artillery Place Tothill Fields (Clark) 33 Artillery Place Tothill Date: 1823.
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives

Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/504/1033966
Insured: William Tart and Mary Probatt 12 South Lambeth Other property or occupiers: Artillery Place Tothill Fields (Long orris weaver) (Cleave carpenter); 32 Artillery Place (Clark); 33 Artillery Place (Dinclay carpenter); 27 to 30 Artillery Place.. [Guildhall Date: 1825.
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives

I don't know whether that means that Long was an orris weaver and Cleave was a carpenter, but it seems to.

Thanks Janey for the informatiom. It is posible that William is related but to be honest I have not got a clue how!

Dea/Christine.

Heard back from Westminister City Archives. No records were kept for admissions to Emery Hills only administration documents.

Apprenticeship records - nothing available.

They searched the parish records for St Johns for Richard Long c1780 - nothing.

The lady I spoke to was very helpful and said she would try and get a colleague to see if any Parish records came up for St Margarets Wesstminister. So fingers crossed. Otherwise a dead end I fear.

Thanks everyone

Regards

Paula

Have had a reply from Westminister Archives and this is what I have had sent

'27 December 1778 Richard Long S.of William by Mary' - in the 'Born' column after the entry it says: 'Nov'r 12'

Wonder if this is the William mentioned that Janey posted?

Heh, if your Longs are like my Hills and Barnards, they all had the same danged names. ;)

James & William Hill, Richard & Thomas Barnard ... long lines of the boogers, vertically and horizontally.

A William Long who had a son born in 1778 would have been born 1750-60ish or maybe earlier, making him a little advanced in age in 1823-27.

But maybe William & Mary had a son William too!


edit --

'27 December 1778 Richard Long S. of William by Mary' - in the 'Born' column after the entry it says: 'Nov'r 12'

You don't think that's your Richard, parents William and Mary?

Interesting, though -- this may be the man in 1841:

Name: William Long
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Where born: Middlesex, England

>> Occupation: Orris weaver (from the image)

Civil parish: St Margaret
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex

William Long 40
William Long 13
John Long 11
Henry Long 10
Thomas Long 6
George Long 3
Ann Long 35
Fanny Long 9
Emma Long 8
Charlotte Long 5
Ann Long 6 Mo

I've lost the thread a bit; is this your Richard in 1841?


Name: Richard Long
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1780
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Margaret
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex

>> Occupation: Orris weaver (from the image)

Richard Long 61
Henry Long 20
George Long 15
Mary Long 60
Lydia Long 25
Fanny Long 9


He's in district 34, St Margaret, William is in district 29.

I believe that was the one from page one Janey

Heh. One of my Hills wasn't a William or a James, he was a Francis. His father was James, and two of his sons were William and James.

I've never been able to find him in 1841. He's from Devon, born 1819 (I have the baptism), and supposedly had a daughter born in Jersey c1843, per censuses. Where he (and his wife, or not-wife, or first wife ...) was in 1841 is a mystery.

I just looked ... again ... at the William Hill, optician, aged 63, in St Margaret Pettens in 1841whom I'd already looked at twice, wondering whether he might be a candidate for being a brother of your Richard. And once again, noted "optician", and saw no obvious connection.

But this time I noticed something that had escaped my notice the other times.

Just above him on the page is somebody I'd included in my list of "people who might be my grx2 grandfather" in 1841 ;) - a Francis Hill, warehouseman, aged 20, born out of county.

You never know. Maybe the Longs were all related, and our Long and Hill ancestors were on a first-name basis. ;)

Ta Christine, I went back and checked and was relieved to see I hadn't completely lost the thread. ;)

So you figure they were related?