Find Ancestors

Hi Vivienne and Bruce,

I am breaking the rules, cos I have posted about John Davies before, but a while ago. So, here's the history that I have. It is complicated.

I must stress, if you don't mind, that this is the only direct branch of my family that I am still stuck on post-1837. I am going to break the rules again, and re-post it on Trying to Find. I will put up with the shouting, as I am so desperate to find him.

He first appears on a census for certain in 1881 in Glossop, Derbyshire, "married" to Margaret, with children Llewellyn 1876 (born Glossop) and Margaret 1878, plus five little Fishes, as Margaret was previously married to Richard Fish, who died in 1873 in Glossop. Margaret was formerly Margaret Duxbury, and both she and Richard were from Lancashire. I have everything about this couple from cradle to grave. Also the history of Richard Fish and Margaret Duxbury, with considerable help from other members of the Fish family across the world.

In fact he didn't marry Margaret until Dec Qtr 1890 in Stockport. I have the marriage cert. It states that both are widowed and his father is Peter, a Quarryman. I know it is the right marriage because it gives the correct father and occupation for Margaret (Alexander Duxbury, Calico Printer). I have found no previous marriage for John, and no death of a possible wife, presumably she didn't die until about 1890, which is why he couldn't marry Margaret. He appears again in 1891, in Glossop, with Margaret and another daughter Mary 1882 who is not mentioned again. His occupation on all records so far is Stone Mason.

I have a birth certificate of a John Davies born 1 December 1840 in Rhewl in the Parish of Whitford (which seems to cover the Llanasa area), father Peter, a miner, mother Anne nee Vaughan. Llanasa is a small area, and a family relative has been to Chester Records office and searched the parish records and found nothing different. I probably have a couple of other birth certificates of John Davies around the same time, too. None of which fit.

I can find no John with parents Peter and Ann on the censuses, other than in 1841 in Whitford, but John is aged 5, and Peter is a collier.

There is a Peter in 1851, a Mason, born Llanasa, but he has no son John, and he is married to Jane.

There is a Peter and Ann in Holywell in 1851, but Peter is an Ag Lab, and no son John.

There is a Peter, age 44 in 1851, in Mostyn, a widower, with a son John aged 10, but Peter is a coal miner.

People tell me that a Quarryman is a specific trade, and not the same as a miner, so I have no idea if I have the right birth certificate for John Davies, as his father is not a Quarryman.

John Davies dies in Glossop in February 1899. I have the cert and the burial plot.

In fact, I have everything possible about this family, except the history of John Davies prior to 1876 at the birth of the first child Llewellyn in 1876 with Margaret. I don't have that birth cert, but I do have that of Margaret Davies born 1878. She is my great grandmother. I can't see that getting the birth cert of Llewellyn would tell me anything - can you? If you think it will, I will get it.

This Llewellyn, born 1876 is in Bakewell, Derbyshire in 1891, as a stable boy. I cannot find out anything more about him, marriage, death or anything on any census. Not a major worry, but annoying.

The younger Llewellyn, born 1900 in Glossop was the son of Margaret Davies born 1878, who married William Platt. Their marriage was 25 June 1900. Oops, Llewellyn was born two months later! Shame and chagrin! He was my grandad, I loved him to bits, and his musical talent has filtered down through the generations to his great grandchildren.

I really do wish I could sort out John Davies, born 1840, Llanasa, he didn't make that up, did he?

Any help gratefully received.

Margaret

PS Sorry to have hijacked Vivienne's thread. I one had a Welsh boyfriend, as a teenager, a long time ago, and he taught me to say something that sounded like "Shudaki Hethew" which I think meant "Have a good day"!

I do like to try, as Wales is only just down the road, but I believe the Welsh "th" is "dd", and there is probably no need for the "e", so the last word is perhaps Heddiw. Is that any good Vivienne? But I can't image what Shudaki is? Oh, just googled it, It also annoys me that people refer to Betsy co-ed when I think it should be pronounced Betus-y-coyd. And I cannot write Caernarfon with a "v". Am I doing okay?

Margaret

Im reading,pass the asprins please.....

I think what you were taught to say was "how are you today" I am still trying to read up on your problem.

Thread jack away Meg,I was bored anyway .

Not back to my grind until thursday so time to work on it aplenty.

But dont post on TTF again if we are working from here,I will amend the title to something suitable if you like?

Betws y coed =
Betooos Y coyd

As long as you are telling the whole truth Madmeg and there are not red herring trails that others have gone down that have been discounted that we should know about before setting off ourselves!

This is the birth for which you have the certificate just for info

JOHN DAVIES
Birth: 08 DEC 1840
Christening: 27 DEC 1840 Cyssegr Congregational Or Independent, Mostyn, Flint, Wales
Father: PETER DAVIES
Mother: ANNE VAUGHAN
Source Information:
Batch No.: C098521

It is the only birth to those parents in that batch so what I was hoping to find, siblings who could be looked for in censuses, is not to be had :(

Does the birth cert have an actual address on it ,or just the village?

People did change jobs over time and going from Collier/miner to Quarryman would not be to hard to do,both involve mining of a sort,explosives,and pickaxes.

I wondered whether Peter Davies and Anne Vaughan were not married ...

Looking in that same batch for Vaughan births there is

THOMAS VAUGHAN OR EVANS
Birth: 10 JAN 1848
Christening: 11 JAN 1848 Cyssegr Congregational Or Independent, Mostyn, Flint, Wales
Father: FRANCIS EVANS
Mother: HANNAH VAUGHAN

Hannah and Ann(e) are common variants of the same name ...

But Hannah Vaughan had a son John (no father) in 1850 in that batch too.

Have you considered this one in 1851?

Name: John Davies
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Peter
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitford, Flintshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Bychton

Peter Davies 44 I think it says 'coal miner'
William Davies 15
Maria Davies 14
John Davies 10
Hannah Davies 7
Thomas Davies 5
Mary Davies 50


I was actually looking for Hannahs in Bychton because in 1851 there is a Francis Evans 1823 nephew of Thomas Davies and Jane Davies in Bychton ...


Aha that is the same household as the 1841 John Davies you discounted because it says he is 5 years old

Elizabeth Davies 70
Mary Davies 35
>> Peter Davies 30 collier
>> Anne Davies 30
John Davies 5
Maria Davies 3
William Davies 5 Mo
Civil parish: Whitford


Did William's and John's ages get mixed up in 1841?

WILLIAM DAVIES
Christening: 10 JAN 1836 Whitford, Flint, Wales
Father: PETER DAVIES
Mother: ANNE
Source Information:
Batch No.: C056731

Sorry, didn't appreciate the response I might get to my blase attempt to lay claim to Welsh Ancestry.

Vivienne, don't change the title, I don't want to spoil your thread.

Bruce, it is so long ago that I asked about John Davies I can't remember who found what, but it was definitely not a lot. I promise I will not be wasting your time purposely. Everything I have told you is vouched for. John Davies is my direct line and I have every possible document available for him. I just don't know where he came from.

I will have to read your replies carefully.

Magaret

Is this yours Madmeg


1841 census - household transcription
Person: DAVIES, John
Address: Canoldre, Llanasa, Gronant
DAVIES, William M 30 1811 Flintshire VIEW
DAVIES, Ellizth F 29 1812 Flintshire VIEW
DAVIES, Jemima F 4 1837 Flintshire VIEW
DAVIES, John M 0 (11 months) 1841 Flintshire VIEW
CONWAY, Alce F 11 1830 Flintshire VIEW
CONWAY, Ellizth F 7 1834 Flintshire


My OH family Griffiths family come from there and Davies from Northop

Trust me not to read to the end. Sorry,

Vivienne, the John Davies bc says simply Whitford.

Yes, Bruce, it is possible that the ages could have been switched, and John is the 5-month-old, given the birth you found for William. Good find, never saw that.

Sorry I am really tired, must go to bed, will come back tomorrow, not often I do this, but four days of feeding the family has taken its toll on me.

Night night.

Margaret

I have a funny feeling we have corresponded on this before we chose our board names. About a year ago I believe.

Just found this one. Jane may have been mistranscription for Ann. I cannot check the original at the moment..

1851 census - household transcription
Person: DAVIES, Peter
Address: Miners Arms, Llan Asa
DAVIES, Peter Head Married M 37 1814 Mason
Llanasa
Flintshire
DAVIES, Jane Wife Married F 32 1819
Llanasa
Flintshire
DAVIES, Anne Daughter Unmarried F 10 1841
Llanasa
Flintshire
DAVIES, Diana Daughter Unmarried F 8 1843
Llanasa
Flintshire
DAVIES, Catherine Daughter Unmarried F 6 1845
VIEW
DAVIES, Mary Daughter Unmarried F 3 1848

DAVIES, Samuel Son M 1 1850


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And now let me throw in another one, lol

1881

Name: Peter Davies
Age: 65
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Llanasa, Flintshire, Wales

Civil parish: Llanasa
County/Island: Flintshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Talacre Lodge
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Quarryman <<<<

Registration district: Holywell
Sub-registration district: Whitford

Peter Davies 65
Ann Davies 63
Joh Davies 5
Martha Williams 37

'Joh' is 'Jos' though I think, he is grandson.

That Peter seems to fit all the specs for the one we need, maybe he became a quarryman after being a coal miner?

Ladykira this is your Peter in 1841

Name: Peter Davies
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1814
Gender: Male
Where born: Flintshire, Wales

Civil parish: Llansa
Hundred: Prestatyn
County/Island: Flintshire

Peter Davies 27
Jane Davies 27
Ann Davies 1

wife seems to be Jane and no son John.

Here is a Peter Davies with wife Ann in in 1861

Name: Peter Davies
Age: 47
Estimated birth year: abt 1814
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Mold, Flintshire, Wales
Occupation: Labourer

Civil Parish or Township: Leeswood
County/Island: Flintshire
Registration district: Holywell

Peter Davies 47
Ann Davies 40
John Davies 20 <<<< collier
Joseph Davies 12
Moses Davies 10
Christina Davies 5
Ann Davies 1

This fits with one mwntioned earlier



JOHN DAVIES Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth: 08 DEC 1840

Christening: 27 DEC 1840 Cyssegr Congregational Or Independent, Mostyn, Flint, Wales

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: PETER DAVIES Family
Mother: ANNE VAUGHAN


C098521

Yes Ladykira I posted that on the previous page for info because it was the one Madmeg was talking about.

sorry my eyes are boggled with Davies and cnt remember which one is which.Thought it better to repeat one rather than miss it.

Just so's you all don't think I am ignoring you, I have an entire file on the Welsh Davies lot, I am going to get it out after a long time of inactivity and compare with what you have found so far.

I have even, at some point, been in touch with someone on the Llanasa community group, but it got me nowhere. I saw the pair at the Miners Arms a long time ago but for some reason couldn't find them again.

There is also a couple with a Christmas Davies you might come across - if you're still keen to try!

Thanks

Margaret

Christmas Davies ... bah humbug.

Hahahahaha.

I have waded through my file, and am finding the same problem that I had last time I tried. Several possible Peters and Annes/Janes, but most of them don't follow through the censuses, or if they do there is no John.

I'm a bit happier to accept that Peter might have been a miner of some sort, after other Taffs told me a Quarryman was definitely different.

At one point I searched for married John Davies's to find a wife dying around 1890, but that also found nothing conclusive. Have spent money on useless certificates - and will still do so if anyone thinks anything is worthwhile.

Sorry if your help seems to have led to nothing, but it has sparked new interest for me and fresh thinking, and Bruce's idea of ages being switched I hadn't thought of (though I have had it happen before).

Maybe his birth father wasn't Peter. Maybe his birth father died and his mother married a Peter, whom he thought was his father. Maybe he isn't recorded as John Davies in 1841. Maybe I'll never know.

Margaret