Military Chat

Please can anyone explain how to read this record, as William Crawford has not been found on any records until his marriage in Dartford in 1893 to Bertha Elizabeth white.
1911 he claims to be born 6.3.1866 Midleton, county cork resident.

On marriage he claims his father is Robert.

This record may help to find more about him. I can see he was on the Indus in 1886, but do not know where he enlisted. What does it mean at the top, 12 years? He was 12 years old or he has served for 12 years.??

If we knew where he enlisted it would help.
It seems the one ship named Indus sank in India, and another sank off Cornwall.
But I can’t see where crew would embark.

Any help appreciated.

Gill

P.s. can’t see how to upload the document. Any help on that ??

Is this the record you mean?

William Crawford
in the UK, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services, 1848-1939
Name William Crawford
Gender Male
Birth Date 6 Mar 1866
Birth Place Middlesex, Co. Cork
First Service Date 6 Jan 1879
First Ship Served On Indus
Last Service Date 23 Feb 1886
Last Ship Served On Pembroke II
Service Number 135960

The mention of 12 years means that he enlisted for 12 years - though it appears he stayed longer than that.

These records don't give you every little detail about embarkation, etc - just dates of service on different ships.

He was on the Indus 6/1/1886 - 26/7/1886.
Then later he was on the Indus again - 6 /3/1889 - 27/12/1889.

HMS Indus (1839) was an 80-gun second-rate ship of the line launched in 1839. She was used as a guard ship from 1860 and was sold in 1898.
HMS Indus was the name assigned to the Devonport guard ship and flagship of the Port Admiral, between 1860 and 1905:
HMS Indus was the original guard ship between 1860 and 1898.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Indus

There seem to have been lots of ships named Indus, with confusing overlapping dates.
The one above may be the most likely - in which case he may have embarked at Devonport - but can't prove it.

1939
They are at 30 White Barn Lane, Dagenham.

He is recorded as a retired naval pensioner.

Irish records are patchy.

If he was in Ireland or at sea before he met Bertha, presumably in Dartford area, you won't find any record of him.

His birth isn't showing on irishgenealogy.ie - at least not in Cork area 1860-70.

I don't see any of the family in 1901, though their daughter Yoland was born 8 May 1901 in Deal, Kent, per 1911 and 1939 censuses.

What was his father's occupation - on the marriage cert?

On Ancestry and FS, there is no image of the marriage cert to view, and no occupation stated in the transcription.

I assumed the OP had the cert...................


The man's record shows that he was in Deal at the time of the 1901 census


INFO on FMP

"The village of Deal in Kent is missing in its entirety from the 1901 census. There are no known copies available."

No help with William - but -

1915: they are at 46, James St., Elswick, Newcastle-on-Tyne:

Able Seaman William Thomas Crawford
Birth unknown
Death 9 Oct 1915
Burial
Alexandria Chatby Military Cemetery
Alexandria, Al Iskandariyah, Egypt
Plot D. 14.
Memorial ID 12073234 ·
Service No: KP/967
Age: 21
Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, Howe Bn. R.N. Div.
Son of William and Bertha Crawford, of 46, James St., Elswick, Newcastle-on-tyne





1921 - they are in Newcastle upon Tyne:

Bertha E 1868, William 1869 (born Middlesex, England, presumably mistranscribed), Joland E 1902, Leonard 1910, and Jack A 1907.

1921 Census Of England & Wales
46, James Street, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
William Crawford Head Male 1869 51 Middlesex, England Watcher H & M Customs & Excis H M Customs & Excise, Newcastle
Bertha E Crawford Wife Female 1868 52 Greenhithe, Kent, England Home Duties -
Joland E Crawford Daughter Female 1902 19 Deal, Kent, England Shop Assistant Wilsons & Carter Millinary
Jack A Crawford Son Male 1907 14 South Shields, Durham, England - -
Leonard Crawford Son Male 1910 11 Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England

Corrections submitted to FMP

Here is a link to the marriage cert in Kent

Williams father, Robert, listed as a labourer

William listed as Coast Guard under profession

The marriage certificate is page 104

https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/wwwopacx/wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=files&value=P362B-01-05.pdf

The witnesses are no help, unfortunately, as they are Bertha's sister Letitia and her husband John Farmer.

ErikaH or ArgyllGran- comments please

If this is Joland's Baptism in Canterbury, Joland's and her parents names are recorded in Latin. Therefore would the same not hold true for William's record (assuming he was Baptised/and Catholic) in Cork? Would this in turn partly account for why any record of William prior to 1866 is proving challenging?

England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Deal, St Thomas of Canterbury, Kent, England

Yoland Helena Maria Or May
Father's first name(s) Gulielmi
Last name Crawford
Father's last name Crawford
Birth year 1901
Mother's first name(s) Berthae
Birth date 08 May 1901
Mother's last name White
Baptism year 1901
Archive Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Southwark
Baptism date 09 Jun 1901
Register type Baptisms
Parish Deal, St Thomas of Canterbury
Register year range 1895-1907
Deanery Dover
Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Diocese Southwark
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
County Kent
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Country England
Collections from England, Great Britain

Gillikins
If Joland's baptism theory panns out, I have attached a shortcut to the Catholic Parish Registers at the National Library of Ireland for:

Middleton
Diocese of Cloyne | County of Cork
Variant forms of parish name:
Midleton

which include
Baptisms 24 Sep. 1819 to 29 Dec. 1863
Baptisms 03 Jan. 1864 to 24 Apr. 1881

Marriages 31 Oct. 1819 to 21 Apr. 1864
Marriages 16 Jan. 1864 to 13 Feb. 1881

https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0079

Perhaps you will be able to find William or his father Robert's marriage in there........

Guglielmus, Gulielmus, Guilhelmus, Gulielmo, Gulielmum = William

copied from
Family Tree Forum
Latin names in Catholic Records
Published: 05-03-10

That's a useful site, Jink20.

However, he wasn't baptised in Midleton in 1866 - 1870.

I haven't trawled any further so far.

Im always in awe of what your team can find… thanks so much.

All your finds are the target William. I have used irishgenealogy.ie to no avail, or at least nothing I can prove.
I did find a Robert born the other side of cork on 26.3.1866, but it may not be him,
And a Robert in Belfast on Williams birthdate, but father David.
Perhaps the remarriage of Robert the father in 1873, and possible death in the workhouse in 1897, „Robert Crawford from Midleton” but can’t prove anything.
The family thought that Robert was from Scotland. Maybe!

However, trying not to get distracted from William, we will try the link you have given.
Much appreciated. ??????????

Posting for our reference - just in case it's relevant - the death you mention:

Robert Crawford
in the Ireland, Civil Registration Deaths Index, 1864-1958
Name Robert Crawford
Estimated Birth Year abt 1827
Date of Registration 1897 Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Age 70
Registration district Middletown
Volume 4
Page 502
FHL Film Number 101599



There seems to be no reason to think that William came from Scotland.
1911, and his seagoing record, are both specific in stating Midleton, Cork - not just a vague "Ireland".

There were 18 William Crawfords, without middle name, registered in Scotland in 1866.
It's not exactly an unusual name.

Sorry i misled you. The family thought Robert came from Scotland not William ??

Again, it's a very common name, and there's no way to prove if any of the 19 Robert Crawfords baptised in Scotland 1826-1828 (per SP) might be him - that's even assuming the 1897 death is the right man.

Two had fathers named William (after whom they might have named a son) , and one had a father named David - though the Belfast birth you found doesn't seem likely to be "your" William in any case.

Gillikins
I found this information whilst considering your comment " Robert the father in 1873, and possible death in the workhouse in 1897"+"Robert Crawford from Midleton”

On the Carrigtwohill & District Historical Society I found this announcement:

Midleton Workhouse – a lecture by Sean Horgan at MyPlace, Midleton, on 22nd May 2015.
According to the website Sean Horgan wrote his MA was on the subject of the Midleton workhouse and the famine

Alternatively, this website:

https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Midleton/#Records

has information about the Midleton workhouse with contact information and record availabilty listings held at

https://corkarchives.ie/

Hopefully there is something here that may be of use to you