Military Chat

Hi Family been searching for over 50 years for information on Walter Clinton Herbert Known as Clinton to family. He served in South Staffordshire regiment. Births 1st July 1922 Herbert Walter Clinton his mother mother Ruth Kazia ( nee Bower ) father Charles Thomas Herbert. REF: record of birth for Walter Clinton Herbert (Coventry 6d 1221). We Have tried to find a death certificate for him but unable to find one anywhere.
Been in touch with South Staff historians, news papers even MOD waited 2 years for reply but still they not got to my application, after sending numerous emails got a telephone call and a message from MOD
after 2 years waiting


Unfortunately, your application is still in the queue to be actioned. I have however searched for the record on our archives and the only record that is recorded close to the details that you have provided is a WC Herbert army number 4925850 with the date of birth 01/07/1922. This record is no longer held by us but is with the National Archives. If you believe that this is the record that you are looking for I can provide you with the barcode and you can apply direct to them and I will put a note on our database to destroy your application and cheque.

It was postal order I sent so hoping when is finally returned its not worthless and I waisted £30 .

MOD have supplied reference to obtain his records but says I will need death certificate before National Archives will be able to give me information on him . So can someone please tell me where I can get a Death certificate for Walter Clinton Herbert the man who was born and disappeared. I know he was stationed in Lincolnshire

He wrote to his aunt Dorothy on 23rd August 1942 saying he was coming home in two weeks but never arrived home.
This was the last time anyone heard from him.
Walter Clinton Herbert's aunts' daughter Dorothy ( same name as her mother) says that his mum told her mum that his clothes were found on a beach but no sign of him? We do not know how true this is though. If that was case where is record to say this happened as he was serving member of Armed Forces???

The address on his last letter was, Rear Party, 4925850. MT.HQ., 11th S Staffs, Ussleby Hall Camp, Nr Market Rasen, Lincolnshire.

I have researched this and found during the Second World War it was used as a German Officer Prisoner of War Camp.

I do not know if he was stationed there but assume he was.

I cannot find a Death for him registered anywhere I have contacted Newspapers in the Market Rasen area to no avail. I have contacted the Library in Lincolnshire also to no avail. I have also been to search the Archives in Kew but there is nothing on Walter Clinton Herbert anywhere. Must have been before the MoD released his information to National Archives as lady from the Archives was helping me.
This is the reason I am writing maybe someone can shed some light on the conundrum we have been trying to solve.
Many thanks in advance fingers are crossed someone can get info from somewhere

If the application you mention was for a copy of his army record, then I'm sorry to tell you that the £30 fee is non-refundable.

"Fees
It costs £30 to apply for each record, which is non-refundable. The fee covers research and administrative costs."
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

A missing person isn't automatically assumed to be dead.

A family member has to apply to have the person declared dead:

https://www.gov.uk/get-declaration-presumed-death

Perhaps that was never done?
If not, there will be no death cert.

His record is still closed on the 1939 Register - though should be open later this year, as it will be 100 years since his birth:

For our reference:

Charles T Herbert
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Charles T Herbert
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 31 Aug 1891
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 6 Elkington St.
Residence Place: Coventry, Warwickshire, England
Occupation: Axle Shatts Setter
Line Number: 36
Schedule Number: 162
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: Qdcw
Borough: Coventry
Registration district: 390-1
Household Members Age
Ruth Bower 75 - widowed - 26 May 1864
Charles T Herbert 48 - married
Annie Herbert 20 - 26 Dec 1919
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.

He had siblings Annie (registered 1920) and Brian 1928.
I don't see his mother in 1939. She died 1954.

Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
Bower Ruth K Herbert Chesterfield 7b 1516
Herbert Charles T Bower Chesterfield 7b 1516

I Have this information but thank you Brian his brother died in Canada where he and his family emigrated. His sister Annie died in Wales. The MoD have stated that they will return my postal order to me I have that in black and white from them.
The fact is that as he was serving in the armed forces it should be them that are responsible for his death being notified as he was in their care being a soldier. He was not a civilian he was in Army.
I do not know anything other than seeing the last letter he wrote home 23rd August 1942 when he was returning home in 2 weeks.
How do you apply for death certificate if you do not know date he died, how or where he died?
Even if we now obtained a death certificate it does not answer these questions which we want answering.

Thank you so much

If the army knew that he had died, they would have notified his family .
But they may not have known what had happened to him.

If he didn't report back for duty after his leave ended, they would have contacted the family to find out where he was, and there will be something about it in his army record.


See the link I posted previously re how to have someone declared dead .

I don't know what date they would put on it - but at least there would then be a death cert, and the army record could be released by the National Archives.


If he did leave his clothes on a beach, and presumably committed suicide, his body may not have been found.
Or if it did, but the body couldn't be identified, his may be one of the many "unknown" deaths registered every year.

Have you considered that he could possibly still be alive somewhere?

If still alive, he will be 100 years old in July.

Not impossible, but probably not very likely.

Hi All
Yes we have considered he may have been still alive. He was not on leave at time of his disappearance though, this is the thing that is not easy to comprehend.
He never arrived home when his leave should have been in September1942 according to his letter home. According to his family his sister in law still alive and nephews nieces still alive my dad (deceased )was one of them he would never have committed suicide no matter how hard life may have been or what he was going through he really was not the type. It's hard we just need to know someone must know something it maybe have been a story one of his company who served in Army South Staffordshire Reg Useelby POW camp based in Market Rasen think was German Officers holding camp has passed down to their families. Thank you

You say he was not on leave at the time of his disappearance.
How do you know?

He wrote home in August 1942, saying he would be coming in a couple of weeks' time - which would be his leave in September.

Are you assuming that he disappeared before he was due to go on leave?

It seems more likely that he went on leave as planned - but didn't go home.

If he was still in the army, surely they would have been in touch with his family when he didn't return after his leave?
If they didn't contact the family, the implication would be that he had left the army without telling the family.

Didn't the family contact the camp when he didn't turn up on leave?

If his clothes were indeed left on a beach, then either he had committed suicide, or he'd gone swimming and met with an accident, or he'd wanted to make it look as if one of those things had happened.
If the third possibility is the correct one, he may have changed his name in order to deliberately disappear.

However, there doesn't seem to be anything we can do to help, from what's available online.
The army record is the only hope of any possible clues - for which the family will have to have him declared dead.

Families can't always tell what's going on in someone's mind.

Hi
No someone from Army came to his mothers house to tell them that his clothes were found on beach, what beach we do not know, when this was we do not know. But obviously after time of his letter home and his upcoming leave, unless he was called to serve and his leave cancelled So yes someone does know something this is pretty obvious to the family.

I came across W.C.Herbert on Army casualty list under a different number Private W.C.Herbert South Staffordshire Regiment 4928580.
If you notice the new number is slightly different but they are too similar to ignore that this maybe the same person. the old number on letter home was 4925850. Fingers crossed. I am thinking if he was injured maybe someone else wrote letter for him and never wrote correct number on letter.
This maybe different people in South Staffordshire Regiment with Same name ??? Clutching straws here :(

Oh. I see! Your earlier post didn't say that the Army knew about it, so it sounded as if the finding of the clothes was just a rumour.

In that case, there will be something in his Army record - but possibly only stating that his clothes were found and he was missing - which you already know.

However, finding clothes doesn't prove death, so no death cert could or would be issued.

Having him declared dead, which would be expensive but otherwise not a problem after so long, does seem to be the only way forward, to allow the Army record to be accessed.


WC Herbert 492580 seems to have a record dated 1943 as well as one dated 1942, per forces-war-records.co.uk - though that may just be some note added after a reasonable length of time to say that he was still missing (if that's the right man) :

W C Herbert 4928580 Private 1943 South Staffordshire Regiment
W C Herbert 4928580 Private 1942 South Staffordshire Regiment

I don't have a sub to that site to see the details.
These are just Army records - not casualty records.

That site has no record for 4928850.
Neither number appears on the CWGC site.

The casualty record says that the soldier with the number 4928580 went missing on 29th Aug. 1942

There is another record for the same man that says capture year 1942. Theatre of war - India. :-

First name(s) W C
Theatre of war India
Last name Herbert
Archive reference WO 417/52
Year 1942
PIece description Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 946 - 961
Capture year 1942<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Archive The National Archives
Service number 4928580
Record set British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Rank Private
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank as transcribed Pte
Subcategory Second World War
Regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Collections from Great Britain, UK None
Regiment as transcribed South Staffordshire Regiment

Kath. x

He was in a "rear party" in 1942, per his address.
MTHQ means Military Transport Headquarters.


Here is an article by a soldier who was in a rear party, probably in late 1990s ("some years" before the Afghanistan war, anyway) , but maybe gives a clue as to Frederick's possible state of mind ??

https://military.odb.org/military-stories/stuck-on-rear-party/

Hi Thanks for info I did pursue the missing in action one for W C Herbert but in conversation with MoD they said it was not him ???
Walter Clinton Herbert does seem a very difficult phenomenon for which I intend to get to bottom of eventually he deserves to be laid to rest properly and we as a family need to know what happened to him .
I thank each and everyone of you for trying to help and information you have all given. But welcome any ifo from those who may know more .
Glenise x

Kath said "The casualty record says that the soldier with the number 4928580 went missing on 29th Aug. 1942"

Given the date, that does sound as if it could be your man. After the letter home, but before the start of his leave.

It doesn't say MISSING IN ACTION, does it , Kath?

If it just says MISSING, that would fit with your Frederick.
No matter what the MOD says, if it were my search, I would want to get the record from the NA and check for myself.

There is no online record anywhere for anyone with the number 4928850, and your thought that the number was written wrongly by mistake on his letter seems like a reasonable possibility.

FMP seems to have 4 results for a WC Herbert, when searching with key"word" 4928580, but I don't have a sub to FMP to see the details:

Herbert
W C
1942
British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Great Britain

Herbert
W C
1942
World War 2 Allies Collection
Great Britain

Herbert
W C
1942
World War 2 Allies Collection
India

Herbert
W C
1943
British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Great Britain

No, it doesn't say Missing in Action, just Missing.

Kath. x

You have to excuse the jumbled order of these records - it's the way FMP shows them as 2 columns, but they copy and paste as one with the columns merged!!


First name(s) W C
Theatre of war India
Last name Herbert
Archive reference WO 417/52
Year 1942
PIece description Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 946 - 961
Capture year 1942
Archive The National Archives
Service number 4928580
Record set British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Rank Private
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank as transcribed Pte
Subcategory Second World War
Regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Collections from Great Britain, UK None
Regiment as transcribed South Staffordshire Regiment

From original - a typed list
Under "Missing" heading
11th Bn. South Staffordshire Regiment
4928580 Herbert Pte W.C. 29 .8.1942

---------------------
World War 2 Allies Collection
Great Britain

Transcript of W C's record

First name(s) W C
Country Great Britain
Last name Herbert
View the original source View the record's source
Service number 4928580
Original source British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Rank Private
Record set World War 2 Allies Collection
Regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Ship or regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Subcategory Second World War
Year 1942
Collections from Americas, Australasia, Great Britain, Ireland, UK None
Capture year 1942

This is a Transcript only

----------------
World War 2 Allies Collection
India
Add to tree
Print
Person with no specified gender
Transcript of W C's record
Copy to clipboard
First name(s) W C
Country India
Last name Herbert
View the original source View the record's source
Service number 4928580
Original source British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Rank Private
Record set World War 2 Allies Collection
Regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Ship or regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Subcategory Second World War
Year 1942
Collections from Americas, Australasia, Great Britain, Ireland, UK None
Capture year 1942

Another Transcript only record

-----------------------------
British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Great Britain

Transcript of W C's record
Copy to clipboard
First name(s) W C
Regiment as transcribed South Staffordshire Regiment
Last name Herbert
Archive reference WO 417/56
Year 1943
PIece description Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 1027 - 1050
Capture year 1942
Archive The National Archives
Service number 4928580
Record set British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Rank Private
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank as transcribed Pte
Subcategory Second World War
Regiment South Staffordshire Regiment
Collections from Great Britain, UK None
Findmypast

Original - typed list. It's a list of Corrections to a list that was made up before. Covers various theatres of War and shows such things as POW's, wounded, Missing, POW previously reported as missing, wounded, KIA

Missing -
11th Bn south Staffordshire Regiment
4928580 Herbert Pte W.C. 29.8.1942
The above entry should be deleted (Listed in error|)

Hmmm - how confusing, GG!

I wonder if the NA has more detail than that.


The only ones of those four records to mention 11th Battalion are the ones with the date 29 Sept 1942 - ie - missing, and then listed in error.
As far as I can discover, the 11th was never in India, and not even abroad anywhere - so if a man of that name was captured in India, he's not Glenise's man.

"Hostilities-only battalions

The regiment raised six other battalions before and during the war but these were used mainly in home defence roles or training units for the battalions overseas, or converted to other roles such as the 14th Battalion which was raised at Hereford racecourse in July 1940 was sent to guard the beaches at Gt.Yarmouth and Caister In late 1942, transferred to the Royal Artillery and converted into the 103rd Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery and trained in Scotland. However, the regiment was disbanded in August 1943. The 12th Battalion was converted to 91st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery and served with the 4th Infantry Division.
>>>>>> The 11th Battalion was raised in 1940 and joined the 209th Infantry Brigade as a training battalion. Following the end of the war, the 11th Battalion was posted to the Middle East where it was disbanded."
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/South_Staffordshire_Regiment

Joining the 209th Infantry Brigade wasn't until 1944.
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/209th_Infantry_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)


The man captured in India must have been in the 1st Battalion, though the record posted by GG doesn't specify:

"During the "Chindits" campaign in Burma, the 1st Battalion was part of the 77th Indian Infantry Brigade and were selected for conversion to the Chindits role and fought in Operation Thursday, the second Chindit expedition.[18] During the expedition George Albert Cairns of the regiment was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.[19] The battalion took part in jungle fighting against the Japanese forces. After serving as Chindits, they were transferred to the Parachute Regiment, becoming parachute infantry, and converted to the 16th Parachute Battalion.[20] The battalion joined 50th Indian Parachute Brigade, part of the 44th Indian Airborne Division."
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/South_Staffordshire_Regiment



But the transcriptions don't explain fully.
We know Walter was definitely in the 11th .

The two W C Herberts can't both have had the same number.
So if the man in India was 4928580, perhaps Walter's number was 4928850 after all, as written in the letter home.

But there's no online record of anyone with that number.
Surely the MOD must have a record somewhere of Walter's enlistment, whatever his number was.
Perhaps his whole record has been included with that of the other WC Herbert, if their numbers were similar.

Walter , in the 11th, probably WAS listed as missing on 29 Aug 1942.
Presumably the man in India was also listed as missing, until it was confirmed that he'd been captured.
At some point, someone may have assumed that the two "missing" records were for the same person.


I would still want to see the full army record , assuming more exists than just those lists above.

After several mergers, the Staffordshire Regiment is no more.

The Staffordshire Regimental Association has a Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1staffordsregassoc/

Glenise -
you said you had been in touch with "South Staff historians".

What did they say?
Were they looking only for a death record?
Or could they not find any kind of record for a W C Herbert in the 11th battalion, including enlistment?