Military Chat

Thank you again - 'yes' I have George's papers.

'Will be back soon!'

Thanks again - Valerie

Great Britain
Record set British Army, Worldwide Index 1861
First name George
Last name Bryan
Service number 690
Rank Private
Unit or Regiment 108th Foot (Madras Infantry)
Regiment stationed at Jaulnah East Indies (1862)
Year 1861
National Archives reference WO12 / 10020
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & Service Records
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

George
Last name Brien
Year 1857-59
Service number 690
Rank Private
Regiment -
Clasp Central India
Medal type Indian Mutiny Medal, 1857-1859
Country Great Britain
Record set Britain, Campaign, Gallantry & Long Service Medals & Awards

Likely marriage of the parents of the Michael whose 1831 baptism I posted -
married in the nick of time:

Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - BANDON
Marriage of JOHN BRIEN of N/R and MARGT BRIEN of N/R on 16 June 1831
Husband Wife
Name JOHN BRIEN MARGT BRIEN
Address N/R N/R
Occupation N/R N/R
Father N/R N/R
Mother N/R N/R
Further details in the record
Recorded Diocesan Area CORK & ROSS
Recorded Parochial Area BALLYMODAN, KILBROGAN & DESERT SERGES (BANDON)
Husband Denomination RC
Wife Denomination RC
Witness 1 JOHN SULLIVAN
Witness 3 JULIA MURRY

Thanks.
I know it's 'my Michael' b Bandon - 1861 shows him b Bandon with wife Ellen and family incl daughter Mary Ann - the 'niece who is shown visiting my ggrandad George in Lambeth 1881 census..
(I'm in contact with Michael's descendant -Peter Bryan -who had a listing on 'GR').

John Henry Bryan (grandad) born Aug - (close to my father's) - some concern now about the year - seems it should be 1872.
Apologies - I wrongfully thought he was on the 1871.

George Bryan was in 108th Foot (No 690)
(previously known as 3rd Madras 1853 -when he joined HEIC - then it became 108th Foot 1861) He was discharged 1868/9 after 17 years in Madras.

Thanks again - Valerie


Apology - my printout/copy 1871 census does only show George & Mary. Very sorry about that.

Looking at the image of the original 1831 baptism record for Michael Brien, his mother's name is defintely "Margt".

Of course neither I nor anyone else can be sure if that's your Michael or not, without further proof.

I have already posted John Henry's birth record - definitely 1871, July-Sept, so it's impossible for him to be on the 1871 census, which was taken on 2 April:

Posting again here:

BRYAN, JOHN HENRY mmn SMALL
GRO Reference: 1871 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 842

You say you have George's discharge papers.
What regiment was he in?
If it was the 108th Regt, then I've already posted the 1871 census for them, with no children.

So far, I'm not seeing (on Ancestry) the 1871 you mention with John Henry aged 0 and parents George and Mary, in Woolwich.

Thank you again.

The last record- re Michael's baptism - his mother's name( Mary) appears to have been mis-transcribed as 'Mrgt' . -it does fit in to be 'Mary'.

(as previously mentioned Michael's daughter Mary Ann was 'niece' visiting my gg/dad George.in 1881.) (so positive record of George & Michael being brothers)

1871 census George & Mary are shown with 'John Henry' 0 age. ('Waterman's Fields' Greenwich/Woolwich). ( His birth was definitely in Aug - so MAY have been born 1870????)

I am currently waiting to hear back from 'Ask a Librarian' NSW State Library - re newspaper death notice for a John Bryan -d 1940 - 79yrs (bc1859) - MAY be Michael's son b Plumstead 1858. (death was in the 'RYERSON INDEX' newspaper death notices)

Thank you again
Valerie.

You say,
"1871-1911 shows James's family -with 1 (currently in question) male 'James bc1876'."

You've mentioned this child before - but if the Bryan/Collins family is the correct one, they HAVE NO SON named James - see the censuses which ErikaH posted on 9th March at 16:39.

Please post the census on which you've found him.

Did the RootsIreland volunteer give you records (or links to records) of George or Michael's baptisms, showing their parents as John and Mary ?


I'm not seeing such baptisms online - but maybe he/she found them elsewhere.

A possibility on irishgenealogy.ie - but mother's name Margaret:

Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - BANDON
Baptism of MICHL BRIEN of N/R on 17 August 1831
Name MICHL BRIEN
Date of Birth N/R N/R N/R
Address N/R
Father JOHN BRIEN
Mother MARGT BRIEN
Further details in the record
Child Denomination RC
Sponsor 1 DAN SANTRY
Sponsor 2 ELLEN CROWLY
Recorded Diocesan Area CORK & ROSS
Recorded Parochial Area BANDON

I know you have all this - I'm posting it for helpers' reference, because we like to see the actual documents.

The niece in 1861 with parents:

Mary Ann Bryan
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Mary Ann Bryan
Age: 3/12
Estimated Birth Year: 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Michael Bryan
Mother's Name: Ellen Bryan
Gender: Female
Where born: Gravesend, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Milton
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Gravesend
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Gravesend
Sub-registration District: Gravesend
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 165
Piece: 470
Folio: 182
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
Michael Bryan 30 - Bandon, Ireland
Ellen Bryan 24 - Bandon
John Bryan 6 - Flamstead, Kent [ Plumstead on image ]
George Bryan 2 - Flamstead [ Plumstead ]
Mary Ann Bryan 3/12

George Bryan
in the UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925
View Original Image on Fold3.
Name: George Bryan
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 39
Birth Year: abt 1830
Birth Place: Dumlay, Cork <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 6 Jul 1869
Regiment: 108th Foot
Rank: Private
Regimental Number: 90

Here are George and Mary in 1871 - no children with them:

George Bryan
in the 1871 England Census
Name: George Bryan
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: 1833
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Ril [ Ireland on image ]
Civil parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Woolwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Arsenal
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 133
Piece: 785
Folio: 13
Page number: 20
Household Members Age Relationship
George Bryan 38 Head, pensioner from 108th Regt. - born Ireland
Mary A Bryan 20 Wife , Middlesex.

Many thanks for that, Valerie. It's good to have actual people and facts to work from.

I fear the hunt for the unnamed relatives "over the other side" may be a vain hope, as you don't know their names or when they might have emigrated. They might have been only very distant relatves, for all you or anyone knows.

However, re your direct line -

Documentation for our reference

John Henry Bryan
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Henry Bryan
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: Geo. Bryan
Mother: Mary An Bryan
Gender: Male
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 44 High Street
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Son
Registration District: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Norwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors:
Piece: 627
Folio: 67
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Geo. Bryan 49 - Cork
Mary An Bryan 29 - Lambeth
John Henry Bryan 9 - Woolwich
Geo.Ricd. Bryan 7 - Woolwich
Thos.Patk. Bryan 4 - Norwood, Surrey
Chas.Edw. Bryan 1 - Norwood
Mary Ann Bryan 20 - niece, Gravesend
Eliza Fisher 27 - servant

:

George Bryan
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: George Bryan
Gender: Male
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 4 Aug 1869
Marriage Place: St John the Evangelist, Lambeth, Lambeth, England
Father: John Bryan, labourer
Spouse: Mary Ann Small [no father's name given ]
Register Type: Parish Register

George was a bachelor, pensioner [ therefore ex-army ]



BUT John Henry can't be on the 1871 census as you say.
He wasn't born until after the census was taken:

BRYAN, JOHN HENRY mmn SMALL
GRO Reference: 1871 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 842

Thanks again.
I have my grtgdad's Army discharge papers (1853-68) -(Madras) I have his marriage 1869 -living in Lambeth -with wife Mary Ann (nee Small).

1871 living in Woolwich -plus grandfather (baby) John Henry Bryan b1871.

My father (Charles Henry Bryan b1915 Lewisham) never spoke of family history -our family emigrated to Perth WA 1951.

1881 shows ggrandfather George & Mary in Lambeth -with a 'niece' visitor -Mary Ann Bryan b Gravesend 21yrs. I traced her (on 1861) with parents Michael & Ellen Bryan b Bandon c1835.

Then volunteer' RootsIreland' found the family -(with matching parents) John & Mary Brien (Leary) of Dunmanway.

My grtgrandad George lived close-by my grandad John Henry (Catford) - he'd 'lost a leg 'resulting from 'Indian Mutiny'. (grtgrandad's HEIC papers show birth date 1829 and birthplace - Dunmanway Cork.

My father's eldest brother John b1903 (u/m) came out to Perth a year after us. He told me of 'relatives in Aus - 'over the other side - from a long way back'.

None of my (now late) cousins (all in UK) ever knew (or even had an interest) in family history.

So I'm now working on grtgrandad's brothers James and John bc 1832-35.
1871-1911 shows James's family -with 1 (currently in question) male 'James bc1876'.
(other son Joseph became 'Marist brother' in Scotland.

Leading/needing to now follow up 'John b1832' - (just learned m Mary McCarthy) 1858 Annakissy.

It's difficult to search each Aus State's deaths -i.e.1920-1950 -some show parents' names - others show 'blank' - and of course there's a 'generation gap' to consider - so not easily traced.

(getting back to James Bryan's family - my elderly Uncle John had mentioned his 'cousin Gertie'
.(1911 James' daughter 'Gertrude' (31) still living 'at home' - as was Uncle John b1903 Greenwich - apart from age gap - fit our 'family'.

I realise I've extended my (limited) info here - but have tried to 'fill in the blanks'.. Think I need to 'rest my case'!! - at least for a while.

Thank you all very much.
Valerie

To find which relative emigrated to Australia you need to start with the present-day descendants (your mother or father ?), and work back methodically, generation by generation, with documents to prove each stage.

The volunteer on Roots-Ireland may not have the correct info unless he/she was able to prove the connection to your parent.

So you've no actual documentary proof that the Bryan/Collins family is in any way connected to you

As far as can be deduced, you haven't even got the marriage cert to see what the man's father's name was. Coreect me if I'm wrong...........

Sorry ....' no' I haven't worked back.
I only had gg/grandad 'George' Brien/Bryan b1829 Dunmanway - parents John & Mary Brien (nee Leary) residence 'of Vagus' ('vagrants')..

I have Grt/ggrandad's details (HEIC) /marriage in Lambeth/ d Catford 1911/2 etc.

A few years ago a volunteer on 'Roots-Ireland' found other members of the family - namely James b1835 (m Catherine nee Collins) ..... John b1832 m Mary McCarthy
Michael bc1831 m Ellen ..(I have contact with his UK descendants -unfortunately had no knowledge/or interest of any ancestors).

George/Michael and his father were soldiers. That's why I was checking on James.

My main aim is to trace which 'Bryan' relative took his family to Aus.
'He'/'they' must've been off-spring - much younger to emigrate 'a few years back'!

That's all I have to work on.

Thanks again - Valerie

You've been asked how you worked back to this couple - and you haven't answered the question.

James (senior) was a bricklayer in 1901 (see censuses posted above), but living on "private means" by 1911 - presumably retired from bricklaying.

thank you again.

I obviously need to find the record of James Jnr b c1876.
I had his name added (sometime ago) - on my 1881 printout. Hopefully I'll find him again!

(I had wrongfully assumed James Bryan Snr to be a bricklayer - at age 76yrs)

Thank you all again - Valerie