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re post at 0235

Johannes
Last name Bryan
Address ?? Carthay
Marriage year 1860
Marriage date 21 Feb 1860
Parish Millstreet
Alternative parish names Callen, Cullen
Diocese Kerry
Spouse's first name(s) Maria
Spouse's last name Leary
Spouse's address Knockstunagh
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Timothei
Father's last name Bryan
Mother's first name(s) Maria
Mother's last name Bryan
Spouse's father's first name(s) Michaelis
Spouse's father's last name Leary
Spouse's mother's first name(s) Maria
Spouse's mother's last name Leary
Repository
National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634761#page/1/mode/1up

John
Last name Brien
Birth year -
Baptism year 1832
Baptism date 24 Jun 1832
Residence Vagrant
Parish Annakissy
Alternative parish names Anakissy, Clenor, Killavullen, Monanimny, Monanimny, Clenor and Wallstown, Monanimy, Wallstown
Diocese Cloyne
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Brien
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name Leary

John
Last name Brien
Address -
Marriage year 1858
Marriage date 16 Feb 1858
Parish Annakissy
Alternative parish names Anakissy, Clenor, Killavullen, Monanimny, Monanimny, Clenor and Wallstown, Monanimy, Wallstown
Diocese Cloyne
Spouse's first name(s) Mary
Spouse's last name McCarthy
Spouse's address -
County Cork
Country Ireland

Many thanks for your interest and help.


The James Bryan shown as 'bricklayer' may well be their son b c1879.

James bc1835 and John bc1832 are my ggg/grandfather's siblings.

My goal is to fill in the many 'blanks' in my Brien/Bryan family/ies..

(I'm trying to find a 'Bryan' family who emigrated to 'the other side of Aus -from a long way back'). (quoted from an elderly relative visiting W Aus many years ago) ..... (other side being NSW/VIC/Qld)

Thank you. - Valerie

Sorry to labour the point -
but how do you know that James 1835 and John 1832 are your gggg's siblings?

Have you found documentary proof, step by step, working back from whichever of your parents is the direct descendant?

As already said, you can't take anything in someone else's tree as true unless you find documents to back it up.

cont

...thanks too for finding John's marriage to Mary McCarthy.

James and John's parents were John & Mary Brien (nee Leary)
(also a Michael - b1832 Bandon -I have link with his descendants.)

My reason being on the 'Military Board' was because their father (John Brien bc1800 Cork) had been in the Army - and my ggt/grandad 'George Brien' b1829 had been in the 'Indian Mutiny'..
(seems a lot of Irish young men were recruited 1850+ (a form of refuge perhaps)

Thanks again - Valerie

No, Valerie, the Bricklayer is Catherine's husband. I would not have said he was a Bricklayer if he wasn't!!!
Apart from which, they didn't have a son James!!!!!!!

1911
James Bryan Head Married Male 76 1835 Private Means Cork Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 66 1845 Private Means Banty Ireland
Elizabeth A D Leeuw Daughter Widow Female 40 1871 Private Means East Greenwich
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 31 1880 Designer Blouses East Greenwich
Annie Bryan Daughter Single Female 29 1882 Underclothing Machinist East Greenwich

1901

James Bryan Head Married Male 61 1840 Bricklayer Cork, Cork, Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 56 1845 - Ireland
Marie Hale Daughter Widow Female 36 1865 Millinery Saleswoman Greenwich, Kent, England
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 22 1879 Assist - Blouse Maker Greenwich, Kent, England
Annie Bryan Daughter Single Female 19 1882 Feather Curler Quill Greenwich, Kent, England

1891

James Bryan Head Married Male 50 1841 General Labourer -
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 46 1845 - Ireland
Ellen Louise Bryan Daughter Single Female 22 1869 Purse Maker Greenwich, Kent, England
Elizabeth Bryan Daughter Single Female 22 1869 Feather Curler Greenwich, Kent, England
Catherine Bryan Daughter Single Female 17 1874 Wreath Maker Greenwich, Kent, England
Gertrude Bryan Daughter - Female 12 1879 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Annie Bryan Daughter - Female 9 1882 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Joseph Bryan Son - Male 7 1884 Scholar London, Middlesex, England


1881
James Bryan Head Married Male 40 1841 General Laborer Cork, Cork, Ireland
Catherine Bryan Wife Married Female 36 1845 - Ireland
Ellen Bryan Daughter Single Female 12 1869 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Elizabeth Bryan Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Catherine Bryan Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Greenwich, Kent, England
Gertrude Bryan Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Greenwich, Kent, England
Ellen Collins Mother In Law Widow Female 75 1806 - Cork, Cork, Ireland


Not sure where the bride's second forename came from...........

Marriages Jun 1896 (>99%)
Bryan Elizabeth Theresa Whitechapel 1c 564
De Leeuw Francis Whitechapel 1c 564

1901
29, Kenmure Road, Hackney, London & Middlesex, England
Frances de Leeuw Head Married Male 30 1871 Surgical Instr Maker Highbury, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth de Leeuw Wife Married Female 30 1871 - Greenwich, Kent, England

Deaths Mar 1907 (>99%)
DE LEEUW Francis 35 Hackney 1b 332

?????

Marriages Sep 1922 (>99%)
COLBURN Harry De Leeuw St. Olave 1d 432
DE LEEUW Elizabeth T Colburn St Olave 1d 432


1939
45 Friendly Street, Deptford, Lewisham, Deptford, London, England
Harry Colburn 05 Dec 1862 Male Conduct Road System Retired Married 177 1
Elizabeth Colburn 26 Dec 1871 Female Unpaid Domestic Dutie Married 177 2

Reverted to her original name

Deaths Dec 1952 (>99%)
COLBURN Elizabeth A 81 Hackney 5c 834

Thank you all very much.

James Jnr (correction) bc1875 (shown 5yrs 1881) then sister Gertrude bc1879 (shown as 2yrs) This James MAY be the 'immigrant' .I need to follow up.

(only other son Joseph b c1883 became a 'Marist Brother' in Scotland)

I haven't looked at any other trees - I'm just having another (annual?) 'go' with my own research.

Thank you again - Valerie

If there was a JAMES c1875, he IS NOT on any census with James and Catherine(nee Collins)

Please C&P the 1881 record you say is him.

thank you again.

I obviously need to find the record of James Jnr b c1876.
I had his name added (sometime ago) - on my 1881 printout. Hopefully I'll find him again!

(I had wrongfully assumed James Bryan Snr to be a bricklayer - at age 76yrs)

Thank you all again - Valerie

James (senior) was a bricklayer in 1901 (see censuses posted above), but living on "private means" by 1911 - presumably retired from bricklaying.

You've been asked how you worked back to this couple - and you haven't answered the question.

Sorry ....' no' I haven't worked back.
I only had gg/grandad 'George' Brien/Bryan b1829 Dunmanway - parents John & Mary Brien (nee Leary) residence 'of Vagus' ('vagrants')..

I have Grt/ggrandad's details (HEIC) /marriage in Lambeth/ d Catford 1911/2 etc.

A few years ago a volunteer on 'Roots-Ireland' found other members of the family - namely James b1835 (m Catherine nee Collins) ..... John b1832 m Mary McCarthy
Michael bc1831 m Ellen ..(I have contact with his UK descendants -unfortunately had no knowledge/or interest of any ancestors).

George/Michael and his father were soldiers. That's why I was checking on James.

My main aim is to trace which 'Bryan' relative took his family to Aus.
'He'/'they' must've been off-spring - much younger to emigrate 'a few years back'!

That's all I have to work on.

Thanks again - Valerie

So you've no actual documentary proof that the Bryan/Collins family is in any way connected to you

As far as can be deduced, you haven't even got the marriage cert to see what the man's father's name was. Coreect me if I'm wrong...........

To find which relative emigrated to Australia you need to start with the present-day descendants (your mother or father ?), and work back methodically, generation by generation, with documents to prove each stage.

The volunteer on Roots-Ireland may not have the correct info unless he/she was able to prove the connection to your parent.

Thanks again.
I have my grtgdad's Army discharge papers (1853-68) -(Madras) I have his marriage 1869 -living in Lambeth -with wife Mary Ann (nee Small).

1871 living in Woolwich -plus grandfather (baby) John Henry Bryan b1871.

My father (Charles Henry Bryan b1915 Lewisham) never spoke of family history -our family emigrated to Perth WA 1951.

1881 shows ggrandfather George & Mary in Lambeth -with a 'niece' visitor -Mary Ann Bryan b Gravesend 21yrs. I traced her (on 1861) with parents Michael & Ellen Bryan b Bandon c1835.

Then volunteer' RootsIreland' found the family -(with matching parents) John & Mary Brien (Leary) of Dunmanway.

My grtgrandad George lived close-by my grandad John Henry (Catford) - he'd 'lost a leg 'resulting from 'Indian Mutiny'. (grtgrandad's HEIC papers show birth date 1829 and birthplace - Dunmanway Cork.

My father's eldest brother John b1903 (u/m) came out to Perth a year after us. He told me of 'relatives in Aus - 'over the other side - from a long way back'.

None of my (now late) cousins (all in UK) ever knew (or even had an interest) in family history.

So I'm now working on grtgrandad's brothers James and John bc 1832-35.
1871-1911 shows James's family -with 1 (currently in question) male 'James bc1876'.
(other son Joseph became 'Marist brother' in Scotland.

Leading/needing to now follow up 'John b1832' - (just learned m Mary McCarthy) 1858 Annakissy.

It's difficult to search each Aus State's deaths -i.e.1920-1950 -some show parents' names - others show 'blank' - and of course there's a 'generation gap' to consider - so not easily traced.

(getting back to James Bryan's family - my elderly Uncle John had mentioned his 'cousin Gertie'
.(1911 James' daughter 'Gertrude' (31) still living 'at home' - as was Uncle John b1903 Greenwich - apart from age gap - fit our 'family'.

I realise I've extended my (limited) info here - but have tried to 'fill in the blanks'.. Think I need to 'rest my case'!! - at least for a while.

Thank you all very much.
Valerie

Many thanks for that, Valerie. It's good to have actual people and facts to work from.

I fear the hunt for the unnamed relatives "over the other side" may be a vain hope, as you don't know their names or when they might have emigrated. They might have been only very distant relatves, for all you or anyone knows.

However, re your direct line -

Documentation for our reference

John Henry Bryan
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Henry Bryan
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: Geo. Bryan
Mother: Mary An Bryan
Gender: Male
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 44 High Street
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Son
Registration District: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Norwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors:
Piece: 627
Folio: 67
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Geo. Bryan 49 - Cork
Mary An Bryan 29 - Lambeth
John Henry Bryan 9 - Woolwich
Geo.Ricd. Bryan 7 - Woolwich
Thos.Patk. Bryan 4 - Norwood, Surrey
Chas.Edw. Bryan 1 - Norwood
Mary Ann Bryan 20 - niece, Gravesend
Eliza Fisher 27 - servant

:

George Bryan
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: George Bryan
Gender: Male
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 4 Aug 1869
Marriage Place: St John the Evangelist, Lambeth, Lambeth, England
Father: John Bryan, labourer
Spouse: Mary Ann Small [no father's name given ]
Register Type: Parish Register

George was a bachelor, pensioner [ therefore ex-army ]



BUT John Henry can't be on the 1871 census as you say.
He wasn't born until after the census was taken:

BRYAN, JOHN HENRY mmn SMALL
GRO Reference: 1871 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 842

Here are George and Mary in 1871 - no children with them:

George Bryan
in the 1871 England Census
Name: George Bryan
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: 1833
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Ril [ Ireland on image ]
Civil parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Woolwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Arsenal
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 133
Piece: 785
Folio: 13
Page number: 20
Household Members Age Relationship
George Bryan 38 Head, pensioner from 108th Regt. - born Ireland
Mary A Bryan 20 Wife , Middlesex.

George Bryan
in the UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925
View Original Image on Fold3.
Name: George Bryan
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 39
Birth Year: abt 1830
Birth Place: Dumlay, Cork <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 6 Jul 1869
Regiment: 108th Foot
Rank: Private
Regimental Number: 90

I know you have all this - I'm posting it for helpers' reference, because we like to see the actual documents.

The niece in 1861 with parents:

Mary Ann Bryan
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Mary Ann Bryan
Age: 3/12
Estimated Birth Year: 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Michael Bryan
Mother's Name: Ellen Bryan
Gender: Female
Where born: Gravesend, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Milton
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Gravesend
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Gravesend
Sub-registration District: Gravesend
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 165
Piece: 470
Folio: 182
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
Michael Bryan 30 - Bandon, Ireland
Ellen Bryan 24 - Bandon
John Bryan 6 - Flamstead, Kent [ Plumstead on image ]
George Bryan 2 - Flamstead [ Plumstead ]
Mary Ann Bryan 3/12

Did the RootsIreland volunteer give you records (or links to records) of George or Michael's baptisms, showing their parents as John and Mary ?


I'm not seeing such baptisms online - but maybe he/she found them elsewhere.

A possibility on irishgenealogy.ie - but mother's name Margaret:

Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - BANDON
Baptism of MICHL BRIEN of N/R on 17 August 1831
Name MICHL BRIEN
Date of Birth N/R N/R N/R
Address N/R
Father JOHN BRIEN
Mother MARGT BRIEN
Further details in the record
Child Denomination RC
Sponsor 1 DAN SANTRY
Sponsor 2 ELLEN CROWLY
Recorded Diocesan Area CORK & ROSS
Recorded Parochial Area BANDON