Military Chat

Thank you to everyone who helped with this request!

Thank Gritty most! I came along lately and did my robot brain thing but Gritty found the really neat s**t :-)

Thank u so much for all your help
Kind regards
Kim

It's actually not that unusual to see babies and toddlers farmed out in the censuses, usually to relations of some sort. Somebody in the household may have been sick, or auntie and uncle just wanted a baby for a visit, I dunno!

I did see that Chapman-Shepherd marriage, you're right ... I think I persevered looking for a Jane Susan but that could be the one. Or they just weren't married either. As you well know, that wasn't all that unusual either. :-)

I'm dead tired with long hours of work to go so see how you and anybody else who can help can get on with tracing cousins, and I'll look in from time to time ...

oh and ps - the situation of a woman with a 'boarder' (or a man with a 'housekeeper') in the census is also very common, generally where one party in each case wasn't free to marry :-)

they may have represented themselves socially as a married couple, but told the truth on the census ... I mean, the truth except for them not really operating at arm's length!

Ok I see now that's much clearer!
As you say though what Harold was doing with the Chapmans I'm not quite sure? Perhaps if the baby(Harold) was not known about by Caroline's husband they put him with friends/family?
I found a marriage between Mark Chapman & Jane Shepherd in 1886 so no cooper connection there? It's a mystery!!
But at least I have so,e relevant info to go on now, thanks!
I will now try to contact Tony in the hopes it is the one still alive in Leighton Buzzard who may be my Uncles step brother. Also see if I can find children of Stanley & Williams as they will related to my Uncle too. I see that both Stanley & William died some time ago but I'm hoping they had children that I can trace for my Uncle?
Much appreciate all your time with me on this, it's amazing what can be found out!!

hm, I don't know who William and Elizabeth Bushell are!

ah I see -- my first failed attempt to identify Harold's parents that I'd tried to write off. :-)

No, that William and Elizabeth fit so well ... but they wuz wrong. I didn't delete all that because I didn't want to make the discussion incoherent. But I edited that info to identify it as wrong-o.

I haven't figured out a connection between Harold and the family he was visiting. The big problem is that there is no marriage I can find for the Chapman couple! I thought Jane Susan Chapman might be a sister of Caroline Cooper Weir or of William Bushell, but haven't really looked for a connection yet, in the absence of a marriage to show the wife's surname.

So, leaving that William and Elizabeth in the dust, we have

William James Bushell, postman ('Buckell' per Ancestry, no wonder I didn't find him - I went looking for Caroline Weir and found her ... with William in her household)
and
Caroline Maud Cooper first married to William Weir, who presumably died so she could marry William Bushell

Caroline Maud Cooper was married to William Weir in 1901 but apparently cohabited only briefly. Harold, at least, was William Bushell's child - the older children were registered as Weir only so may be children of the Cooper-Weir marriage. But Caroline Cooper Weir and William Bushell were cohabiting by 1911 and Harold was their child together.

Stanley born in 1912 was William Bushell's child. The law required that he be registered in Caroline's husband's surname (this was to protect women and their children from unsubstantiated and unprovable allegations of adultery). But William Bushell formally acknowledged him by registering him also as Bushell.

Caroline was definitely Harold's mum, and William Bushell was definitely his dad -- Harold too was double registered as Caroline's child (as Weir) and as William Bushell's child (as Bushell).

also you're just not used to copies of freebmd entries ...

Births Sep 1916
Bushell William J Cooper Croydon 2a 450

means William J Bushell, mother's surname Cooper, Croydon, vol 2a page 450

if you do that search at freebmd it is clearer, and if you do it for Harold and Stanley and click on the page numbers, you will see that the list of names on the page includes them twice, under both surnames ... always click, I tell myself ...


so not so terribly complicated

it seems that Caroline had two daughters with her husband Weir (although only the DNA would say for sure), then Harold, Stanley and William with partner/husband Bushell

So Caroline was your uncle's grandmother for sure - the only reason we're poking into their lives here being him of course! otherwise I'd be saying we shouldn't be talking about people's parents' and grandparents' private lives this way :-)

Ooh, this is a lot to take in!!
Do we assume then that Harold was the child of Caroline Weir but took the Bushell name? Or was he the Son of William & Elizabeth Bushell?
I think what has confused me is that Harold is not listed on the 1911 census with Caroline & yet he would have been 2 yrs old? Yet he is also not on the same census with William & Elizabeth?
Plus if Caroline & William married in 1915 then was Stanley William Bushells child or Weir's child as he was still alive in 1912, I'm assuming William J Cooper Bushell was Caroline & William Bushells child as obviously William Weir was dead then & Caroline & William Bushell had married in 1915?
Also did Harold think then that Caroline was his Mum & when he returned with Tony n 1946 she had passed away? As Caroline had died in 1943.
I'm just a bit confused as to where Harold was when he was a child & who with?? Especially as Elizabeth if this was his proper Mother had died a year after his birth?
Some people surely led complicated lives!!! :-|

Name: Stanley Bushell
Birth Date: 19 Sep 1912
Date of Registration: Mar 1979
Age at Death: 66
Registration district: Sleaford
Inferred County: Lincolnshire
Volume: 7
Page: 2281

could have married in Sleaford 1936


Name: William James Bushell
Birth Date: 31 Jul 1916
Date of Registration: Mar 1982
Age at Death: 65
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 11
Page: 1717

could have married in Croydon 1946/1954
possible births to the first, with a child named for mother


since they are siblings of Harold, their children would be your uncle's first cousins, with whom he would share grandfather William James


also for the record

Name: Harold Bushell
Birth Date: abt 1910
Date of Registration: Jun 1961
Age at Death: 51
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 15

and surprise

Births Dec 1909
BUSHELL Harold Croydon 2a 234
WEIR Harold Croydon 2a 234

the law required that the child of a married woman be registered in her husband's name regardless of paternity (the presumption of legitimacy) but the birth could be double registered in the name of the father who acknowledged the child

I suspect this was Caroline's husband

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/563729/WEIR,%20W

WEIR, W
Rank: Lance Corporal
Service No: S/4202
Date of Death: 20/09/1915
Regiment/Service: Seaforth Highlanders 8th Bn.
Grave Reference: I. F. 7.
Cemetery: FOSSE 7 MILITARY CEMETERY (QUALITY STREET), MAZINGARBE

the Bushell-Weir marriage was in the quarter following that death

from Ancestry

Name: William Weir
Birth Place: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Death Date: 20 Sep 1915
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Govan, Lanarkshire
Rank: L Corporal
Regiment: Seaforth Highlanders
Battalion: 8th Battalion
Regimental Number: S/4202
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

also medal cards (search using S/4202)

register of personal effects names sister Agnes Calder

this could be a completely wrong guess at his identity of course and is just of peripheral interest

Marriages Jun 1901
COOPER Caroline Maud Croydon 2a 500
WEIR William Croydon 2a 500


Births Dec 1912 also registered as Weir
Bushell Stanley Cooper Croydon 2a 451

Births Sep 1916
Bushell William J Cooper Croydon 2a 450

perhaps the sister who died was one of the two in the 1911 household ... yes I think

Deaths Dec 1941
Weir Mary A 36 Croydon 2a 1142

Here we go, 1911

Name: Caroline Maud Weir
Age in 1911: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Croydon, Surrey, England
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 10
Estimated Marriage Year: 1901
Occupation: Dressmaker

Name: William James Buckell
Age in 1911: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Seven Oaks, Kent, England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Postman

Civil Parish: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: 103 Cherry Orchard Road, East Croydon
Registration district: Croydon

Caroline Maud Weir 29
Frederick William Weir 8
Mary Ann Weir 6
Edith Weir 4
William James Buckell 25
Harry Jude 24


I had the right Harold, wrong William James


now that's a little complicated :-)

but it does take us to the Caroline M Bushell death in Croydon in 1943, aged 64, I think


Births Sep 1885
Bushell William James Sevenoaks 2a 635

Name: William J Bushell
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Jun 1956
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 69

I don't have time to look now.

Joonie- this is more information from the link I put up earlier:

My father joined the regular Army in 1929. It was not a good time to be looking for a job of any kind and like many other young men of his age he had no training, experience or qualifications to fall back on. The pay wasn’t good but the prospects for promotion, particularly in view of his previous territorial army were promising; and there would be a pension at the end. He was moreover anxious to get away from home. His father, gassed and wounded in the Great War, was hard on his three sons and my father as the eldest probably got more than his share of the broad leather belt his father wore, like many working men of the time, as a symbol of his authority in the home.....

My father’s beloved mother and sister had died while he was away. His younger brother served as a gunner throughout, but the youngest of the three had been captured during the battle of El Alamein and was one of those POWs in Germany who, in the dying days of the war were marched eastwards in appalling conditions to put them beyond reach of the liberating advancing allied army. Like so many others ordinary families we endured much in the two great wars. My grandfather’s small terrace house was overcrowded and while I was admitted to my father’s old school and passed the 11+ this was not the life he intended for me when he brought me home...

I'm not quite following.

Harold was a 2-year-old visitor in the Chapman household in 1911.
Harold's father William was in Bagshot with his older children in 1911, a widower.
It seems that Harold's mother Elizabeth had died in 1910, leaving William with the infant Harold and their other children.

EDIT - the above was based on the wrong William James Bushell, see posts below


'Tony states that he returned to the UK with his Father Harold in 1946 & Harold's Mother & Sister had died whilst he was away'

I don't see that in what Gritty posted. But yes it could be that William remarried not long after 1911 and Harold was reared with a stepmother.

there is a WJB marriage to Caroline Weir in 1915 in Croydon for example. No births with those names but it could have been a second marriage for her.

An equally likely option, a WJB marriage to Caroline A Martin in Farnham (covers Aldershot) in 1918, one possible birth to the marriage

There is a Caroline M Bushell death in Croydon in 1943, aged 64 ...
and a Caroline Bushell death same place in 1934, aged 51
and also Caroline Bushell Surrey SW in 1935, aged 52

I don't think there is likely much doubt about the identity of Harold and his father in the 1911 census. There just weren't that many people with those names, let alone who fit together as clearly as they do.
EDIT - I was half right! :-D

Hmmm?
That is possible about his Father William & timings seem about right, but, in the details that Gritty has given, Tony states that he returned to the UK with his Father Harold in 1946 & Harold's Mother & Sister had died whilst he was away, I believe he left to join up in 1929 so this wouldn't add up? Unless of course his Father remarried whilst he was still very young & he called her Mum? Perhaps I will look for a death certificate for his sister? Where can I see a proper certificate for birth, marriage & death without paying for it? I'm sure I could see them previously on this site. But I can't find it?
You said there was a military connection??

excellent Gritty!

I wonder whether this is father William James Bushell in 1911, and explains why young Harold is with another family

EDIT - wrong William James Bushell - see next page in household with Caroline Weir in 1911

Name: William James Bushell
Age in 1911: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bagshot, Surrey
Civil Parish: Cheriton
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address: Shorncliffe Camp (The Part In Cheriton U D), Shroncliffe Camp (The Part In Cheriton U D)
> Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Canteen Manager
Registration district: Elham
William James Bushell 42
Alice Mary Bushell 15
William Frederick Bushell 13
John Bushell 9

there's a military connection


Marriages Jun 1893
Allen Frederick Canterbury 2a 1475
> Bushell William James Canterbury 2a 1475
Coleman Elizabeth Kate Canterbury 2a 1475
? Kidd Elizabeth Canterbury 2a 1475

Deaths Jun 1910
BUSHELL Elizabeth 37 Elham 2a 605

Jooniecloonie & Gritty,
This certainly sounds like Harold & Anthony that I'm looking for as there are too many similarities for it not to be? Especially with all the detail that Tony writes about his Father in China & Japan as that falls in with what my Uncle knows & has photographs of!
It also explains how Harold & Tony came to England & why at first my uncle did not about the sister (Barbara). Perhaps this is why Harold never married my Grandmother, perhaps he never divorced from Mary?
What is strange is the address in Croydon where Harold was when he was 2? My Grandmother came from that area but as yet I've not found that address on ancestors in that area?
When Tony talks about Woking my Grandmother & Harold run a bar in the local conservative club I think? So perhaps Tony spent some time with them there?
Gritty, if you wouldn't mind contacting the person n Ancestry for me that would be much appreciated? My Dad had a cousin called John Clements that went to live in Australia so perhaps the contacts are there or possibly its Barbara?
I'm convinced the Anthony that I'm looking for is the one mentioned here who married Joyce so I will write to him. Hopefully it is him & he will acknowledge me to get more information. Very sad that Joyce passed away so recently.
Thanks Guys, what would I do without you?! :-)

Oh, and this, written by Harold's son-
http://forcespublishing.co.uk/flipbooks/RMP%20Journal/files/data/search.xml

This explains how the family were separated (from above link- page 8, starting with 'WHO IS THAT BOY?'):

"The growing war between China and Japan erupted in 1937 with air attacks and naval bombardment of Shanghai. All British troops and their families were moved to Hong Kong and, leaving my father to the hopeless defence of Hong Kong my mother, sister and I were evacuated in August 1940 to Australia where we were to see out the war. When Hong Kong fell my father became a prisoner of war and was in Japan working in a nickel mine when the war ended and he joined us in Australia. Unfortunately a marriage that was already shaky did not survive the four years of separation. My mother refused to go back to England and my father, refusing to give up everything of the family he had worked so hard to create, agreed on a settlement that left my sister with my mother while he took me back to England. It was an unusual arrangement and he later confessed to me that he had only agreed to it because he could not see how, in the uncertain future he faced, he could have raised a girl. He admitted that taking me was a real gamble. So we arrived at Southampton in February 1946 to face what was to become the worst winter in living memory."

The story continues onto page 9.

Joonie- I've sent a copy of the marriage certificate to Kim. Harold's father is listed as William James Bushell, Postman.

Hello Kim, your message has confused me a bit! but I've had to work today so don't have much time to sort it. I just want to get this down so I don't forget.

According to what Harold's son, Tony, writes in 2001, Harold did return to Australia for a time:

This is what he writes:

http://www.hkvca.ca/newsltr/archives/MB/ond2001a.htm
We have been contacted by Tony Bushell with a request about tracing any of the Hong Kong POWs who might have known his father, Cpl Harold Bushell, Corps of Military Police.

Tony writes:

There were of course not many British Redcaps in Hong Kong when the garrison was overrun and I very much doubt if any are still alive today. So my best hope of learning something about his experience as a POW is probably through your Association. My father was I think first held in Shamshuipo and at some time was shipped off to Japan to a camp which I think was near Osaka where I think the POWs were made to work in a coal mine. After the war he joined up with my mother, sister and me in Australia and was therefore not aware that he was a key witness in a war crimes trial which was unusually held in Canada. I have no idea of the nature or outcome of the trial which apparently went ahead without him. He died in 1962. He spoke little about his time as a POW.

If any one has information that might be helpful, please contact the editor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A tree on Ancestry (owner sprintexec) states Mary Annie (Harold's wife) died in Australia in 1966- the source of the info is 'correspondence' - so presumably he has had contact with a relation. If you don't have access to Ancestry I can send a message to the tree owner if it would help?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the details of Anthony H Bushell that Joonie gave are for the correct Anthony then sadly it looks as though his wife passed away in December:
http://announce.jpress.co.uk/leightonbuzzardonlinecouk/obituary/joyce-bushell/40265865
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll try and have another look at this tomorrow.

Ah, no marriage to your grandmother, that is not helpful! but still the first marriage certificate would tell you Harold's father to help identify him in other records.

there is a 1909 birth in England

Births Dec 1909
BUSHELL Harold Croydon 2a 234

a match to the father's name on the marriage certificate would confirm that birth (or rule it out if no match)

yes it does make sense - your dad and your uncle have the same mother and different fathers, and your uncle and Anthony have the same father and different mothers ... your dad and Anthony aren't related but are stepbrothers

if you follow the free electoral roll link I gave you can find what seem to be recent contact details for AHB who coud be your AHB, and there would be no harm in trying


bad luck on the 1909 Croydon Harold Bushell ... he was a 'visitor' in 1911

Name: Harold Bushell
Age in 1911: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Relation to Head: Visitor
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Croydon, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: 6 Westbury Road, East Croydon, Surrey
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Croydon

Mark Chapman 45 jobbing gardener
Jane Susan Chapman 51
Laura Louisa Chapman 18
Dorothy Chapman 17
Violet Chapman 8
Harold Bushell 2

and there seems to be no Bushell-Chapman marriage that would have made that couple his grandparents

I'd say that if you want to know more about Harold you certainly need the Bushell-Doney marriage certificate and would have to try ordering birth certificates to find a match to the father

oh, I see you have the 1909 Croydon Harold Bushell in your tree ... do you know the other person who has a 1909 Harold Bushell with no place of birth in their tree?

Hello Jooniecloonie
Thanks for your input in my confusing tale of searching for my uncles relatives.
The info I know is Harold was born n 1909 where I'm not sure? and enlisted in the queens Regiment in 1929 but his living address was Brisbane? So I'm assuming that maybe his Father was also in the Army & that's why they were in Australia? They obviously moved to Britain as he married Mary in 1933 in Farnham Surrey which would be plausible as he was living at the Army camp with his family in Aldershot & Mary in nearby Weybourne,Harold went on to the RMA in Sandhurst & they had Barbara in 1934 & Anthony in 1935 both born in nearby towns. In between 1935-1941 I have no clue to their whereabouts I'm assuming they all went to Australia as it is noted that Harold was in Shanghai pre 1937 with the CMP, & Mary living in Queensland from 1943-49. Harold was captured in Hong Kong in 1941 & later in 1944-1945 was in Japan.
Harold & my Grandmother didn't marry I don't think as there is no marriage certificate & my uncle was born in 1948 in England so again I'm assuming Harold returned to Britain met my Grandmother & had Anthony? Why he didn't return to Australia we don't know, he stayed in England until he died in 1962.
In the meantime Anthony came to England as my uncle has fond memories of him and he later went to RMA Sandhurst where he became a Major!
My uncle was unaware of Anthony having a Sister but I recall someone in the family mentioning it? Apparently she didn't attend Harold's funeral though?
So in reality, Anthony & Barbara are my Uncles half Brother & Sister as is my Dad. My Dad had the same Mother as my uncle but a different Father.
I hope all this makes sense?
So do you think that Anthony married and lived in Durham?
I am very interested in all matters relating to this as I would love to give my Uncle some positive information on siblings before it is too late.
Unfortunately due to some missing years and unknown info it is making the search a little difficult!
Thanks for your input
Regards
Kim