Find Living Relatives

I have recently found out from the 1939 census that Lilian M Bass was actually LIlian M Wass and used Bass even though not married to Henry Frederick. The grandaughter of Lilian M Wass's sister is now in touch and hopefully will provide some answers - but probably not all.
Happy New Year.
Jennifer :-)

No Mavis - just described himself as "Nephew". He had lived there from 1955 with Hen Fred Bass and Lilian M "Bass". (They had been there since 1924)
Nowhere on the electoral register did we see Vera's second christian name so it may not have been Maude. I am more interested in John J O'Keefe and trying to find a family connection.

was there any occupation given for JJO'K when he reported the death
of HFB ??

The Vera M[Maude} Johnson died in Worthing Sx. aged 91y - 1997
D of B 6th Feb 1906.

Mavis :-)

I have just taken the plunge and ordered another death cert for the JJO'K who died in Brent in 1991 aged 64. If this does not lead me anywhere I promise you all I shall give up entirely. Why oh why do we do this?

Thanks ladies. The coincidence of a Lilian M in the Johnson household has thrown us I think. Bear in mind that Hen Fred Bass had Mary LIlian or LIlian Mary with him at 27 Philip Road since 1924 - right through with the exception of 1932 - 1935 when we assume his legal wife reappeared - albeit reversing her christian names from Mary Ann Bass to Ann Mary Bass. According to the electoral register the two ladies were never at the address at the same time.
So, the Lilian M Johnson can't have been in two places at once?
If we knew where Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe went to in the years following 1965 (the on line cut off date) I could get an idea of where they died and get certs.
I have done tree searches for LM Foster 1895, LM Gates 1892 and LM Jackson 1895 and so far only a couple of answers.

I'm so confused about this last input!

is the Lilian M Johnson in the household with Vera M Johnson considered to be related to Lilian M Bass?

the problem I'm having is that 'our' Vera M Johnson was in the household with Henry F Bass and John J O'Keefe in 1957

and the Vera M Johnson whom Mavis has offered was living with Lilian M Johnson 1949 to 1958 ... and Lilian M lived there until 1964 ...


... just to refresh my memory again :-)

1947 Henry F Bass and Lilian M Bass
1955-56 Henry F Bass, Lilian M Bass and John J O'Keefe
1957 Henry F Bass, Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe
1959 Henry F Bass, Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe
1961-62 John J O'Keefe and Vera M Johnson

there is just too much overlap to be related I think


Mavis's Vera in 1911, in readable form :-)

Name: Vera Johnson
Age in 1911: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1906
Relation to Head: Daughter
Birth Place: CAMBERWELL, London, England

there is actually no matching birth ... Vera Margaret in Camberwell in 1908 would have been aged 2, not 5

these two ...

Births Mar 1906
Johnson Vera Mary Lewisham 1d 1177
Johnson Vera Maude Lambeth 1d 447

in any case this would be that Lilian

Births Mar 1912
Johnson Lilian M Northcroft Camberwell 1d 1565

(Thomas Johnson + Nelly Northcroft marriage)


but I just don't think these are the people we are looking for


PS ... I am not saying any of the names I have thrown into the mix are 'right', following a trail is what you have to do to rule out in any case!

too many unknowns still no matter how we slice it :-)

Thanks again. Lots to follow up.

I believe the 1st marriage of Thomas A G Johnson is Thomas snr
Thomas jnr wouldn't have been old enough to marry then .


the Vera M Johnson could have been the sister so may give you an Idea how old John J O'Keefe was perhaps

Mavis

Thanks Mavis. This could be the same Vera M Johnson who lived at 27 Philip Road Peckham Rye Camberwell from 1960 to at least 1965 when we can't see the record on line. She was at that address with John J O'Keefe and as you know I am trying to find a genetic connection between these mysterious occupants of my uncles house.
So maybe she was a local girl who just moved in with JJ O'Keefe when the other people had died and left him as the sole occupant.
Any help greatefully received.

J :-(

think this is the family 1911


Name:
Queenie Johnson

Age in 1911:
9

Estimated birth year:
abt 1902

Relation to Head:
Daughter

Gender:
Female

Birth Place:
CAMBERWELL, London, England

Civil Parish:
Camberwell

County/Island:
London

Country:
England

Street address:
54 Vestry Rd, Camberwell S E -- Vestry road again - same as Elec roll

Occupation:
SCHOOL

Registration district:
Camberwell

Registration District Number:
27

Sub-registration district:
Camberwell North

ED, institution, or vessel:
27

Piece:
2511

Household Members:

Thomas Johnson 40
Nelly Johnson 39
Queenie Johnson 9
Nelly Johnson 6
Vera Johnson 5
Thomas Johnson 3

father and son may be Thomas Alfred George Johnson

Mavis

this may be the Vera M Johnson you are trying to find found through
elec roll.

this family at 82 Vestry Road, Camberwell

Thomas A G Johnson
Lilian M Johnson
Vera M Johnson
from 1946 to 1948 all there
1949 Thomas AG Johnson not there -- he dies 1978 70y in Bromley DoB 18 2 1908
Lilian and Vera are there together 1949 to 1958 then Lilian M Johnson
on her own to at least 1964 -- they are sharing the house with a Herbert and Queenie M Birch -- Queenie is easier to find on Elec. roll

1959 Vera M Johnson is sharing with John J O'Keefe

Thomas A[Alfred] G Johnson seems to be a bit of a ladies man - 3 marriages

1st Nellie Beasley - Brentford Sep Q 1921 3a 481
2nd Helen M D Rosborough - Hendon Jun Q 1933 3a 1162
3rd Rose F Stone - Camberwell Dec Q 1937 1d 1337

not married to a Lilian

don't know if this will help you :-) :-)

Mavis ;-)

Thanks for that.

The £10 is to actually purchase a copy of the Will/Letter of Administration. If you go ahead it ought to be available to down load to your computer in about 10 days (time will vary based on demand/staffing levels)

The entries you can see (to 1966) are exactly the same as Ancestry hold. They can be useful to determine if a death previously found relates to your person of interest.

For instance, picking a random SMITH with a probate entry in 1965
SMITH Ada of 2 Rest Cottages Canewedon Rochford Essex died 13 March 1965 at The General Hospital Rochford Probate Ipswich 1 April to Susannah Leesons widow.

The entry tells us who died, when and where. Where she lived and who the executor was. Some entries will give an occupation if the Executor had one. Now if I’d been researching this person, I might already know that she had a sibling or daughter named Susannah and would be comfortable that it was the correct record.

On the same page are a number of other Ada Smiths, dying in Hove, Hinkley, Thorpe Bay, Henefield and Berkhampstead.

At some point (1967/68 or thereabouts) the Executors name is removed from the entries, but as the normal residence remains, it’s still a handy finding tool…..and you don’t need to subscribe to Ancestry to access it!

Things changed in 1996 removing all but the bare facts hence the separate tab.

Detective, I just tried to free Probate & Wills site and they want £10! Am I doing something wrong here please?

Detective to spare me learning a new trick ... I suppose there is no probate for Henry Frederick Bass at all? THAT would certainly have answered some questions!

edit

no, I found the Ancestry index, and of course not.

I'll have to start paying attention to this probate business won't I :-)

I have not had the fortitude to take up Ancestry's offer of its new look yet. I do not want to know until I am forced to! I hate every single thing Ancestry does ...


anyway that was my thinking, yes, what if one or both of John and Vera were children of Lilian in particular ... but what an exciting life that would have made for ...

I even wondered about this death :-)

Name: Vera Lilian M Johnson
Birth Date: 12 Sep 1923
Date of Registration: Feb 2002
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Mid Devon
Inferred County: Devon
Register Number: 32D
District and Subdistrict: 4211
Entry Number: 70

but this seems to be the matching birth and doesn't offer anything

Births Dec 1923
Johnson Vera L M Cox Brentford 3a 219

as for matching it to a marriage, good luck, although I guess I would guess

Marriages Mar 1919
Johnson Mary A Cox Brentford 3a 125
Cox Albert Johnson Brentford 3a 12[56]

just a curiosity I'm sure :-)

oh and one other thing I mean to mention ... never discount the possibility that Lilian Mary was born plain old Lily May.

I know of a Lilian Marion who was finally found being born Lily Mary in the 1890s ... and my sister has the middle name Lilian after our grandmother who told us years later that her name was really Lily but our grandfather thought, in 1920, that 'Lily' was 'common'. Modern young women in the early 1900s sometimes decided to jazz up their names.

not adding anything to the search, but picking up on the earlier comment about Probate.

The England/Wales Probate Calendar entries from 1858 to earlier this year can be searched and viewed for free on

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

They are exactly the same as the ones on Ancestry (to 1966). One thing you do have to remember is that until 1996 they are listed within the year the probate/Administration was granted. That may have been one or more years after the person had died. Not all Estates went to Probate, even if there was a Will.

The Ancestry database does index by the year of death - there wasn't an entry for Dennis O'Keefe died 1955

Thanks for summarising. What if Vera M Johnson was a daughter of one of them and came of voting age in 1957? Johnson may have been Lilian M Bass's real name? Similarly John J O'Keefe could have been not of voting age until 1955. Now that starts a whole new ballgame! Ancestry just emailed me to tell of their new look version. What do you think of it? I really freaked out when FInd My Past changed theirs a while back.

I'm just going to summarize the ER households as I keep having to go back pages to look at them

1947 Henry F Bass and Lilian M Bass
1955-56 Henry F Bass, Lilian M Bass and John J O'Keefe
1957 Henry F Bass, Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe
1959 Henry F Bass, Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe
HFB died 1959
1961-62 John J O'Keefe and Vera M Johnson

So JJO'K appeared before Vera M Johnson
Vera M Johnson appeared the year Lilian M Bass disappeared
JJO'K remained with Vera M Johnson after HFB died

if John was related to Lilian, it would not make sense for him to remain if Vera replaced Lilian, unless Lilian had died (and was replaced in very short order)

the impression I sort of have is that Vera M Johnson was with JJO'K rather than with HFB

other possibility to keep in mind is that Vera and John were in the household earlier but were not old enough to be on the ER

Lilian M deaths in Southwark 1956-57 with birthdates 1885-1910

Lilian M Foster abt 1895 Mar 1956
Lilian M Gates abt 1892 Jun 1957
Lilian M Jackson abt 1895 Mar 1956
(none for Mary L)

nothing to add here, just wanted to do the summary :-)

As there are so many of them I don't feel inclined to use another £9.25 for what is most certainly not going to help identify the JJO'K from 1955 - 1965. The words wall, brick, banging and head come to mind!
Was there anything in the Ancestry Wills & Probate section for Dennis O'Keefe in 1955? Probably they did not have money enough to necessitate probate - but you never know. I really must join Ancestry again as soon as money permits.
The Vera M Johnson may not have been Henry Fred's partner and just a lady renting a room there? If they were an item as such is there any way of finding the pair of them on an electoral roll then we would have a place of death. I still don't know where Lilian M Bass went to when she disappeared from 27 Philip Road. Maybe when she died she got registered in her own name - whatever that was.