General Chat

Just because there are still apes about doesn't mean we can't be descended from them. Dogs are descended from wolves and both species still exist. If you segregate one group from the rest of its species (e.g. they live on separate islands), that group will inbreed and inbreed and they'll end up with all sorts of funny quirks, colours etc. Eventually, after many generations, you may end up with a different species. And Geoff, sorry to disappoint you but dead people don't get wings in Heaven; only never-been-mortal angels have them. You'll have to make do with a harp.

If we did why are there still loads of apes? Debs.

Darwin's theory of evolution was that different species arise by the process of natural selection, including the human species. In the popular mind "the missing link" is a species intermediate between homo sapiens and the apes, the discovery of which would finally demonstrate the truth of evolutionary theory. The precursors of modern man would be expected to have more affinities with the precursors of other modern primates than with the current primates themselves as, in fact, has already been demonstrated by major anthropoid finds over the last 50 years in Olduvai, East Africal. It was reported in the press last week that that the remains of a creature that may be the forerunner of all apes (including us)have been excavated in Spain. Previously, it was considered that there was a continuous graded series of creations, leading from god, through mankind down through the primates to lower forms of life - to inanimate objects such as pebbles. People also believed that the earth was flat, was stationary in the universe and that the sun, moon and stars revolved round it. Ancient mariners believed that if they sailed too far from land, they would fall off into the void. Len

It was widely reported in the press during the last week in October about the “lion-killer” ape discovered and, apparently, filmed in the Congo. It has the agility and build of a chimp but is taller than a gorilla, is carnivorous and stands about 6ft tall. A gorilla can weigh over 50 stone (700lb). A chimp is the size of Danny de Vito but has at least 5 times the strength of the world’s strongest man. Apropos odd apes, did anyone see “Oliver” on Channel 5 TV the other night? It was thought that he may be a chimp/human cross but DNA tests proved him to be a bonabo (a separate species of chimp given to walking fully upright). There was also much made of the discovery in Flores of several skeletons of a hominid species that stood only 3ft tall when fully mature. It stood fully upright, was skilled at tool and fire-making and preferred its food cooked. Again, it is wondered if the species may still exist as much of the territory is unexplored. As it was skeletal remains, not fossil, which only died maybe 15,000 years ago, it is hoped that the bones may yield up DNA. So Homo Sapiens may not be the last of the hominids. On TV recently, experts admitted that vast tracts of the planet are uninhabited, still have to be explored and on the average a new species of plant or animal turns up about once a week so it cannot be ruled out that that Yetis, Ainus and Abominable Snowmen and the like may still be found. Last week it was reported in various newspapers that paleontologist in Spain had uncovered remains of beings that definitely linked homo sapiens (modern humans) with the fore-runner of all modern apes. Len

Another stimulating discussion! Reading through the replies has raised one or two interesting 'side' questions, I think. Isn't it true to say that we all have 'faith', even if it's faith in the 'fact' that there is nothing to have 'faith' in? My mother despaired of my soul doubly when I rejected the faith I had been born into, firstly because, in her mind, without it I had no faith and secondly because I was rejecting such a wonderful 'gift'. I do have faith though, it's just not the same as hers. I can't help thinking too, that faith is meant to be a tool to help us live good and better lives, not a stick to beat others over the head with. We don't say that people do or follow something 'religiously' for nothing. Fundamentalists and those with entrenched beliefs will always be among us, and it saddens me to think that while for the most part, those who founded religions did so for the most honourable of reasons, others will hijack those beliefs for other, more personal, agendas. Ultimately, no-one is sure of anything in this debate, it's all founded on faith of one sort or another. Humanity is still putting together all the pieces of the jigsaw, and ntil we have irrefutable proof, nothing is certain. I suspect each and every one of us has part of it right.

>>Did we develop from apes?.......<< Absolutely not - God created the heavens and the earth - and all life on earth

Carol You have a very good point there. It is also overlooked that the original material was much edited (or omitted altogether) as it did not suit the male-dominated church. Len

Geoff, ahhh but God works in mysterious ways That's usually the answer to everything isn't it ? Paul

Bendy In reply to your earlier enquiry as to what I had posted to this thread, in a fit of exasperation I enquired if certain people had ever attended school and, if so, what did they do there? We go to school to train our minds, not merely "to learn things". It occurred to me that some people do neither. Then I realised I was being testy (well, I am old) and deleted it. Len

Speaking of skeletal structures, I've never quite figured how angels' wings can be satisfactorily attached to the human skeleton. There seems to be a lack of suitable anchoring points and of spare muscles to move what would need to be rather large wings.

All life on earth is descended from a single source. A good indication of this is that all vertebrates have a similar skeletal structure with modifications according to species. Did you not ever wonder why you have a skeleton somewhat similar to that of a toad? Homo sapiens, chimps, gorillas, orangs are all members of the ape family and have a common ancester, probably a lemur-type animal. Apart from fossil remains (it was reported in the press today that the linkage has now been completed with finds in Spain) it is possible to trace back the connections through DNA. Anyone need some recommended book lists? I go along with Rosemary's comments Len

You wouldn't want mine believe me - at least yours was only through marriage - I've got a blood link to my missing links....scary!!! :) Kxx

Then she must be related to one or two members of my family!! Kxx

Have just seen on Ceefax that they have dug up the partial remains of a primate that could be ancestral to both humans and all great apes including chimps and gorillas. This 13m year old 'missing link' was found in Spain. Kxx

There is much truth behind the Bible and much good in it. Take Noah's Ark. The story is repeated in many cultures (read 'the Epic of Gilgamesh', it tells a strikingly similar tale). As a history of human civilisation it is fascinating, but as the infallable word of God? If God is all powerful I expect he could have found a better way to spread his word - just look at the mistranscriptions we find in genealogical records and they have only been copied a few times. The Bible was copied by hand for over a thousand years and it was in several languages which factors in translation errors. As a guide to life the Bible is as good as any other religious text as the core of many is the same (no religion tells you to steal for example). I've read the Bible, the Koran, Buddhist texts and dipped into Hindu scriptures as well. Considering the current hostility between Islam and Christians you could be fooled into thinking they share no common fetatures.

If man descends from monkies, monkies descend from what ? trees !!

The Bible is Gods word to us...and though I do not understand it all....I know that it is true and not false Regards Hetty

I know I am treading on dangerous ground here and I do not intend to insult anyone,but I am amazed that the Bible can be taken so literally. The Bible was a series of stories put together to help a nomadic people , made up of tribes ,from a pre-bronze age civilisation during their wanderings in search of a home land. It contains their myths and legends.It gives a simple and unsophisticated people a reason how their world came into being and their elders and leaders were able to answer their questions.Those who have studied theology will tell you that there is as much material which has not been included in the Bible as there is in it. Moses was a wise and astute leader.He went into the mountains to work out a set of rules by which his people could be guided during their sojourn. The Ten Commandments have as much relevance to modern society as they did in the desert in those distant times. To achieve an understanding of religious perceptions we need to read widely about as many belief systems as possible.Then we can see their similarities and understand . There are many paths to God.But fundamentalism is denying the reason and intellect which we have been given by GOD. It is this which sets us above the animals.We have evolved and are still evolving Regarding the new testament,it is again full of contradictory stories based around the life of a man.He was the son of God in the same way that we are all children of God.He lived his life preaching and teaching .He was not a Christian,he was a Jew and probably an Essene,a member of a religious sect within the jewish belief. Mary I have read your replies with interest . Thoughtful Rose

Good night all....and thanks for all the fish.

and we all agree to disagree, and coexist peacefully. which is how it should be :o) nighty night