General Chat

Well you have your theory, I have mine. I just think its must more Humane to kill an animal instantly with a gun, and yes they might miss, than to let a load of dogs chase it to exhaustion, and then rip it up. hmmmm...... How would you prefer to die out of the two? Simple question! I know which one i'd choose!

And what do you mean by 'school of thought, you're talking about?' ?????????

From the league against cruel sports site: 'Like all hunting with hounds, fox hunting is designed to be cruel. Hounds are bred for stamina, providing the 'sport' of a lengthy chase. The fox is forced to run as far and as fast as it can until exhausted, when the hounds will catch and kill it. Hunters claim that the fox is killed instantly, but evidence has shown again and again that the fox is just as likely to be torn apart alive. If fast-running dogs were used on a fox hunt the chase would be over within minutes. This would not provide the good cross-country gallop for which hunt subscribers pay. Each form of hunting has its own technique for extending the chase over and above that which would be natural in a predator versus prey situation. Thus it can be shown that the objective of hunting is not a quick chase and a swift kill, but the provision of entertainment. Therefore the suffering of the quarry can be shown to be 'unnecessary', ie the deliberate infliction of cruelty.' This sport is illegal, anyone found doing it should accept they are no more than common criminals and be punished accordingly. Sarah

Thanks Sarah! I'm glad someone can research things better than me! I'd have never found that! And its true, if a grey hound was used, it'd be over much quicker, without a fox being knackered!

Mmmmm, tricky one this. I am a country person as you call it. I was brought up next door to a farm & as a teenager I would see the damage a fox would do to squirrels, chicken etc. The fox is more cat-like than dog-like, it plays with it's prey & will kill unmercifully, often leaving devastation in it's wake, but not always eating it's prey. My friend, the farmer's daughter & I would often watch the Hunt on their land. One day, I happened across a dead fox in some woods. It's teeth were bared, & it was literally in shreds. It's tail had been ripped off by the Master of Hounds. Even now I can still picture it. Ever since then I have not agreed with Hunting. Some of the members of Hunts & their followers are obnoxious, patronising so-&-sos. Some anti-hunt people are not very pleasant either. I can see both sides of the arguement. Actually Hunts do not catch that many foxes anyway, but I still think if they have to control the fox population there must be a kinder way than tearing them to shreds. What is wrong with laying bait with some contraceptive medication in it or capturing foxes & spaying them? A very emotive subject for all of us it seems. :0) Joan

I very much doubt its very rare for a fox to not die instantly by gun. Afterall just look at how a shotgun, and its cartridge is designed. and afterall a fox is only a small animal.

I dont know the name of the method. Its just something we learnt at college to keep a dog entertained whilst hunting.

Of course they are going to rip it to bits,,,,,,I worked at Belviour Castle....where the Belviour Hunt hounds are housed,,,,and for a couple of day before a hunt he hounds have their food reduced and are fed raw meat ,,,,,to make them keen for the hunt,,,Beagle /Cross Dogs . but have been trained for the surpose to hunt so doesnt matter the breed of dog they can be trained to serve a surpose.... It is still a cruel sport,,,why cant just a couple of people go out to control foxes with a gun .,why all the pomp that goes with it,,,you dont see it in any other situation where control is needed,,,,, kay.

Sally, I would like to dispute your argument about foxes being killed instantly by the lead fox with some more evidence from the league against cruel sports website: 'The first hound kills the fox with a bite to the back of the neck' The facts: The British Field Sports Society's own fox hunting promotion film (Hunting - The Facts) shows a fox being killed by hounds. While the commentary by Ludovic Kennedy states that the fox is killed instantly by a bite to the back of the neck or back, the original unedited film sequence produced by the Blencathra Fox Hunt actually shows the animal being savaged in the stomach by the leading hound and still struggling while being savaged by several hounds. A postmortem by a professional veterinary surgeon of a fox killed by the Cottesmore Fox Hounds on 13 January 1996, concluded: 'I feel that the most likely cause of death was that of shock (in the pathological sense) brought about by blood loss, organ damage, lack of oxygenation of the blood due to lower respiratory dysfunction and upper airway obstruction, and ensuing circulatory failure. In short, the fox died a painful and unpleasant death which probably was not quick as evidenced by the areas of haemorrhage seen at many sites'. A Merseyside veterinary surgeon carried out a video-taped postmortem examination of a fox killed by the Cheshire Fox Hounds in January 1994. The transcript of the veterinary surgeon's words states: 'There are no bite wounds on the neck. I am not convinced that it has been bitten on the neck or killed in that way. Personally, you've got to be very suspicious that it's just been killed by being ripped apart.... It hasn't been killed with a single blow'. A post-mortem was carried out by another veterinary surgeon on 30th January 1992 on a fox killed by the Isle of Wight Fox Hounds. The report concluded: 'I could detect no external damage to neck or throat areas, but there were extensive wounds to the abdomen and thorax. In fact the abdomen was ripped open and the intestines were hanging out. The wounds were consistent with the fox having been severely bitten by another animal or animals'. Sarah

Then you'd know how a shot gun works.... The cartridge is kind of like shrapnal, spreads out when it hits, causing almost certain, and almost instant death.

My apologies if my previous reply was a bit graphic and upset anyone. www.league*uk*com/cruel_sports/pack_of_lies/foxes_and_fox_hunting.htm#lie18 Replace * with . Sarah

Thanks again Sarah, i'll call you to back my points up in the future! I can never find things like that!

I live in the heart of the country. If a fox gets into a chicken run he will kill ALL of the hens and maybe just eat 1. If this happens the owner should be able to shoot the fox. A quick death. I agree with this. To chase a fox for many miles, running it to ground and if nessesary digging it out is a very cruel act. Badger baiting and cock fighting used to be common but these have all been banned. They CANNOT be called sport. To ban fox hunting is quite right, but how will it be enforced? Will mounted police be riding along with every hunt? Claire

Meaning who exactly Sally? Trust me I know what i'm talking about.

Sally, with respect, I would say that the vets who evidence the clips that I have posted are well qualified in what they are doing and saying. There is a lot more on the website disputing much of the arguments put forward by the countryside alliance and other pro hunt campaigners, including arguments against the ways dogs trained to hunt are trained. This is an area I myself have had a keen interest in for a number of years, I would by no means call mysef an expert, however, feel qualified having researched this subject in holding my strong views against fox hunting. Sarah

Thank you, Sarah! Bitten my tongue again for long enough. Do you know, pro-hunters have questioned my eyesight?!! I saw a very savage act taking place while a fox was still alive. Screaming, it must have taken a couple of minutes for it to die. What do the pro-hunt say? 'No, that doesn't happen'. But I saw it with my own eyes! Felt utterly sickened, but knew I couldn't do a thing about it. And when the fox had died? A cheer went up from the followers! I leave you, ladies and gents, to conclude my feelings on that terrible experience. And - I have very reliable information that foxes are bred purely for hunting. Yes, that's right - from a hunt supporter! Or did I imagine that, pro-hunters?! :-((

Sally, I know enough about this subject believe me. I have been to college and studied animal care, which include ETHICS, DOG TRAINING. I currently work for Cats protection and so often hear about all this kind of stuff. I have worked with anti-hunt protestors. And have even fired a shot gun a few times so I know how they work! Saying i clearly know little about a subject is a very poor arguement really.

And I dont think I know everything about this subject. But i know a lot about it! Using arguements like 'He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about', is the last words of someone on their way out, or someone who's lost the arguement.

The arguement of someone on their way out with no points to back them up. Ahhhh, bless!

What anybodys opinion is on the subject of Fox Hunting,,,,,I dont care!!!!!! I still say its bloody cruel and unnessessary,,,and thats all I'm bothered about ,. kay,