General Chat

Morning all...see below...

Recently ,somebody mentioned Intelligent Design as being 'ludicrous'. Rather than hijack that thread - what do you think? Is Intelligent Design more ludicrous than evolution? Is evolution a fact (despite having the label of 'theory')? Are you a jumbled collection of meaningless molecules? Do your emotions of anger, love (and outrage at the thought of 'religion') mean precisely nothing? Does your reply to me this morning have no bearing whatsoever on anything at all - never mind anything worthwhile? Looking forward to hearing your replies! William PS So you know where I'm coming from (if you don't already) - I'm another one who has to put my hand up and say that I believe in a literal 6 day creation as described in Genesis. I did an Engineering degree and have a reasonable understanding of science.

Sorry, I haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Too early for me... Liz

And I'm the person who said it was ludicrous - it is based on pseudo science which does not hold up to empirical examination. 'The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design 'and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life' are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[5] Thus intelligent design is regarded by them as, in the modern sense of the word, a Lysenkoism - an unscientific idea propagated for ideological reasons.' Have a look in the skeptics dictionary - http://skepdic*com/intelligentdesign*html or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design Anyone is entitled to believe anything they want to but faith should not be confused with fact. Gwynne

Oh, are we talking about God then? Come on, less syllables per word please... Liz

Hi Liz - sorry! Perhaps I should have explained Intelligent Design more carefully.... Intelligent Design is being promoted (particularly in the States though it's becoming known here in the UK) as a sensible alternative to evolution. Intelligent Design says that the world and everything in it is too complex and well-balanced to have arisen by chance. It shows all the signs of having been designed by someone/something with great intelligence. (Note the way on virtually every naute documentary that whilst talking about evolution, the narrator will refer to something having been designed to function in a certain way!) Intelligent Design does not promote the Christian God - or any other specific god. It just says that there must be something out there who designed it all. Hopefully this helps. Kind regards, William

The theory of ID came from The Discovery Institute which is a conservative Christian think tank in the US. Gwynne

Yes it does, thank you William. I am just going through a period of rediscovering my faith in God (Christian) and I certainly believe that an 'Intelligence' was/ is behind evolution,. It is still early days for me however and I am still exploring different thoughts and ideas. I shall follow this thread with interest. Thank you again, Liz x

I got beaten to it! May I quote Liz quoting the US National Academy of Sciences: 'intelligent design 'and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life' are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[5] Thus intelligent design is regarded by them as, in the modern sense of the word, a Lysenkoism - an unscientific idea propagated for ideological reasons.'' Try replacing 'intelligent design' with 'the theory of evolution' and we see that evolution is not (good) science either. However, just because something cannot be shown to be true/untrue by science does not make it either true or false. For instance, prove to me that the mind exists. Where is it? Science cannot demonstrate it - does it therefore not exist. Science has become the ultimate proof of whether things are true or not. This is a sad and dangerous error - science has many fine uses...but we should not make it our god. William

Sorry William, not me, I'm not that clever. I think it was Gwynne. Liz x

Could someone please explain to me why, if we are a product of evolution, aren't apes still walking out of the jungle to become human. Was it just a one off (or possibly two for mating purposes) ? I believe that we were created by a higher intelligence because I don't find the science totally believable. I believe even Darwin discounted his own theories eventually! Julie xxx

Sorry Liz - I should get my facts right (lol!) - it was Gwynne - apologies to both of you. William

I suppose this is all presupposing there is a God, where is the proof for that? I think that God is an invention by people who cannot accept the fact that we are here for a time , like all animals, and then that is that. But we are all entitled to our beliefs

Hi Julie, Darwin held fast to his beliefs. But there was a rumor started by the widow of Sir James Hope claiming that Darwin renounced his theories on his deathbed and reaccepted Christ as his savior. Darwin’s daughter, Henrietta, said that the rumor false. She stated that Mrs. Hope never even saw Darwin. I don't see a belief that the theory of evolution might be true as incompatible with a belief in a supreme being. Gwynne

Hi Mandy, I’m afraid you can’t have it both ways. If we “always have to complicate things” (in this case by adding God) then how is it that “we are losing our ability to accept that which is beyond our comprehension” (that is, God) It is most unlikely that this is management driven – the majority of people everywhere have always believed in some kind of god – and the notion of management is very modern. What is this ‘force of nature’ – you make it sound as if it has some intelligence. Kind regards, William

Hi Julia, You’re right - we are all entitled to our beliefs. But if they are contradictory then, at the very best, one is right and the rest are wrong. Perhaps they are all wrong. Being entitled to our beliefs does not make them right. Regards, William

Hi Gwynne, The theory of evolution isn’t incompatible with belief in a supreme being. But it is incompatible with belief in the God of the Bible. He created everything perfect – and death entered into to the world as a result of man’s sin. The theory of evolution uses the idea of ‘natural selection’ – death of the weakest – as it’s basis. Therefore there is no way that the God of the Bible used it in creating his perfect world. Regards, William

I think Gwynne summed it up in a nutshell and nut being the operative phrase in this instance: 'The theory of ID came from The Discovery Institute which is a conservative Christian think tank in the US.' Have you seen what these conservative christians are doing in the US and their blooming president is one also ? ANY group of people who seek to tell other people what to beleive and then enforce this belief and way of teaching in schools are a dangerous and extreme bunch, and we all know where the extremists of any group finally lead to and it aint nowhere good

Hi Wulliam, That's your belief which you are entitled to but many Christians do not believe in the literal word of the OT and thus think otherwise. That doesn't make them any less Christian, in my view. Or in theirs, no doubt. People should read around issues and decide for themselves. Not be told what to think. My job as a teacher is to encourage young people to think for themselves it isn't my job to tell them what to believe. In the US the ID fanatics (I don't include you in that number) want ID taught as fact and no discussion of evolution. I have no problem with them both being taught as theories and let people make up their own minds. Gwynne

Well, I'm not a Christian (although I was brought up in the Christian faith and attended a CofE school for seven years), and I don't believe in the literal translation of the books of The Bible, but I DO believe that there is some vastly superior intelligence which is responsible for the creation of not only this planet and all that has ever existed on it, but also the entire Universe. It's just that present-day scientists aren't clever enough to have discovered what it's all about yet - and I doubt that will happen any time soon, if ever. The Judaeo-Christian Bible was translated into Latin by Christian scholars, whose beliefs biased them into intepreting what they wrote in the way they wished to present the information contained on the original scrolls. The Roman Church did its best to suppress all opposition to its principles over many centuries. The Protestant Lutheran and Anglican (CofE) Churches dispensed with some of the beliefs and practises of Roman Catholicism in the 1500s, and the King James version of The Bible was published in the early 1600s. All of these translations carry their own interpretations of the original writings, and the changes in use of language over centuries has probably led to a vast number of misunderstandings. Belief is a matter for the individual - and none of us, however clever or well-qualified, will ever know the complete answers to questions such as 'How and why was our planet and life on it created?' We just have to accept that some believe one thing, and others believe another. Arguing about it all is divisive and achieves little, if anything. CB >|<