General Chat

Georgina: 'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science' - Albert Einstein. 'And what, you ask, was the beginning of it all?.... And it is this: Existence that multiplied itself for the sheer delight of being, so that it might find itself innumerably' Anon. Len

Len wonderful thread........... just a quick question, when God was creating the earth, do you think that the ' Big Bang'' was a surprise to him? Bob

Bob: Perhaps he wet himself - hence 'the deep' in 'darkness was upon the deep'. len

18. The early universe must have been a mixture of nuclei (initial particles) and radiation with the radiation component being massively dominant. Calculations suggest that there was only 1 nucleus for every 2 x !0 to the power of 9 (a truly staggering number) of quanta (unit packets) of radiation or photons ( quantum or unit of electro-magnetic radiation energy) . This ratio has held throughout the life of the universe. To get it into perspective, if there are about 400 photons to every cubic centimeter of space, so the calculations imply, there is only one particle (sub-atomic amount) of matter in every 5 cubic meters. So what is electro-magnetism? It is a force or energy, that has a whole spectrum.of electrical or magnetic properties, stretching on a scale of from 1 to 10 to the power of 18, or above. At the lower end there are radio waves above which they merge into heat and infra red then up into visible light and on to ultra violet radiation. Further up the scale we run into x-rays, gamma rays and so on. Each frequency band has its own wave length which is measured in kilohertz. The wavelength of the vibration can be likened to the rollers in the ocean with a certain distance between each crest. Somewhere between VHF radio and Ultra High Frequency radio the wavelength is about 1 metre. From VHF to medium wave goes up to 100metres Very Low Frequency radio has a verylong wavelength, about 10 to the power of 4 metres. The visible light spectrum ranges through all the colours of the rainbow from dark blue up to red, each colour with its own wave length. Variations in the wavelength produce different sensations in the brain which interprets them as colours. It is suggested but not yet proven that life-force, or consciousness, is in the electro-magnetic radiation field, its particle of energy being comparable to that of gravity (a graviton), which is also hypothetical as it has not yet been observed but must exist. There are scientists and others who hold that Homo sapiens is an exclusively material being in an exclusively material universe. Others hold the view that mankind is a spiritual entity in a material body. I am in agreement with the latter as symbiotic relationships (union between two different organisms for mutual benefit) are commonplace on earth. One of Albert Einstein’s favourite sayings was “The most incomprehensible thing about the Universe is that it is comprehensible”. He meant that the basic physical laws which our brains are able to understand have such a broad scope that they apply not to just the physical world but the remotest reaches of the cosmos. So he gives us hope of eventual understanding. Len

19. With reference to the penultimate paragraph in my last essay, it is “fashionable” to take one view or the other, even in the scientific world. Self-image is important and, to some, it may be macho or impart a self-importance to say “I, of course think it’s all rubbish”. Perhaps it would be wiser to align themselves with intellects such as those of Pythagoras, Aristotle and Einstein (not forgetting Hawking) and say to themselves (if not out loud) the words of Stephen Hawking, our greatest theoretical physicist, from his book “Black Holes and Baby Universes” I quote:- “ All my work has shown that you don’t have to say that the way the Universe began was the personal whim of God. But you still have the question: Why does the Universe bother to exist? If you like, you can define God to be the answer to that question”. He also said, elsewhere 'I am in the well-established tradition of hedging my bets by predicting both ways'. The Universe is regularly demonstrating to us that it is evolving and its secrets are still mostly hidden. Reverting to nuclei and energy, referred to in 18 above, physicists are convinced of the existence of particles and energies that “should be there” but have not yet been proven to exist. They are in the 96% of the mass of the universe, “dark matter” that remains hidden and has yet to be identified. An immensely powerful force has held the universe in place over billions of years and religious belief is a conundrum which in an obscure way seeks to give the key. Science, surely but slowly is turning the key and perhaps one day will open the door. To show………..? The Bible mainly deals with the history of Abram (Abraham) and his descendants, (a sort of family history) but the first 11 chapters give a résumé of earlier events from the beginning of the universe to the birth of Abram about 2000 BCE. This period of history is derived from two earlier histories current among the people of Judah and Israel. The older of the two manuscripts known to scholars as the J Document (J for Judean) contains legends that were current among the tribal people of the area. They were probably written down in their present form in about 700BCE in the strongest kingdom in the Tigris/Euphrates Valley in what is now Iraq. This culture dominated Western Asia and the Sumerians, who lived there, invented writing. The Sumerian legends and theories of the Creation spread to all neighbouring cultures. The later ancient manuscript, dubbed the P Document (P for Priest) was gathered together and written down during the period when the people of Judah (the Jews) were in captivity in the Tigris/Euphrates Valley in the 6th century BCE when the dominant culture was Chaldean, whose capital was Babylon. This document tacked together the Babylonian philosophy on the Creation – which was based on some 2000 years of thought originating with the Sumerians, The two documents were merged by later scholars whose main concern was not to detract from either version Len

20. And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: And it was so. The Sumerians were the most sophisticated people in the world, in their day, and the power of their thought was no less than that of modern scholars. They began elementary science although they did lack thousands of years of accumulated data and modern investigative tools. They were well ahead of the other leading cultures of the world, including Chinese, Indian, Egyptian, European etc. There is no other ancient or primitive document written before modern science that is as logical and rational as the book of Genesis. Originally, these histories were written in Assyrian, later Hebrew then Greek after which translations appeared in most languages of the modern world. Even in English there have been various translation from the Hebrew and Greek and many versions have appeared with subtle differences (In the beginning was the word/in the beginning was the sound). Often, in translating a Hebrew word into another language, several words had to be used to make sense. The first Hebrew book of Moses began with “Bereshith”. It was usual in biblical times to refer to a book by its opening word or sentence. “Bereshith” means “In the beginning”. The nearest Greek match for that is “coming into being” or “Genesis”. Other Greek words in common use today are “chaos” meaning disorder and “cosmos” meaning order. The Semitic version of the old testament was Tanakh and Apocrypha. Bible comes from the Greek biblios for books. Early manuscripts did not divide the bible up into chapters or verses. That was the work of a Frenchman in 1560 and is how most English bibles are arranged. We are stuck with the system, though, as all references and commentaries since the sixteenth century are based upon it. The first sentence of the scriptures refers to “in the beginning”, which is as sensible a place to start as any. All things have a beginning. You were born; I was born; all God’s chillun were born…. We do not actually remember the occasion but happily accept the words of others. We are far too trusting. Before birth we did not exist. That was the ancient belief. We now know that is not true as, during the last few centuries, we have gradually become to accept life in the womb as valid and to expect to see pictures of the unborn child. It is difficult in these days of enlightenment and education to imagine that, not so long ago, a civilized young mother may not have connected the birth of her baby with an event of nine month earlier. It had come about by an act of God and being in a state of married grace. My own great grandmother never had any carnal experience, so my sisters informed me, and her three children were Acts of God. The old lady was scared stiff of electricity and, when her house was wired, kept the lights on in case the electricity escaped and filled the rooms. So maybe life starts with conception? That sounds reasonable enough but when pair of disparate cells fuse and start multiplying when do they become a little person. Is the life force in the ovum and in sperm (or one or the other) or does it enter the foetus, say, at 12 weeks when the infantile brain begins to lay down memories? Some say that consciousness (another name for life-force/soul/spirit etc) is a brain function although new science suggests that, although linked to brain, it is independent and may function separately. What goes for the human animal must go for all mammals, perhaps to a lesser degree. At what point does a conglomeration of cells become conscious or intelligent?. At the other end of the scale, all living things die. Sometimes death is not quite definite. Most have heard of living in a vegetative state, when a person’s body is alive but the brain dead. Even in that state, the tissue of the brain may be healthy but something has departed, more often than not, permanently. Len .

21. Our world, as is the universe, is full of force-fields and bands of energy running through, along and beneath its surface. These are invisible to us but detectable and measurable with instruments. Human intelligence is, perhaps more puzzling. Why, for instance did two distinct races of people separated by eons of time as well as thousands of miles in distance and uncrossable oceans, more or less at the same time start building pyramids with a ground-plan based upon the stars. And how did they amass such knowledge of astronomy in the absence of technical equipment (such as telescopes) which had to wait until the 1600s for Galileo to invent. They did discover force-fields, which we can now detect and measure. We know they did it as they dubbed the lines of energy “Ley Lines” and built various edifices along their length. However, I digress. The ancient Greeks left a wealth of legend connected with the stars as did most other cultures on earth, from the Australian Aborigines (isolated for at least 40,000 years), the Incas, Aztecs and Mayas of South America, native Indian tribes of North America, South African tribes, Chinese, Malaysian, Asians, and the Babylonians from Assyria - all had this legend of the star group Pleiades. Many of these peoples never dreamed, 8 or 10 thousand years ago, that the others even existed. One legend they all shared was of an obscure cluster of stars called the 7 Pleiades or the Seven Sisters. There is nothing whatsoever in the location or arrangement of these seven stars in the constellation Taurus to suggest girlishness but to the Greeks they represented the 7 mythical daughters of Atlas and Pleione. In another legend, they are maidens pursued by Orion the hunter. Australian Aborigines (isolated for 40,000 years, remember) described a camp of 7 young girls. To the Wyoming Indians of N. America, the stars represented 7 young girls pursued by a bear. How can it be that so many cultures, which may just as well have been on different planets for all they knew of one another, individually evolved the same legend about an obscure and dim bunch of stars? There wasn't a shortage of better constellations about which to create myths. Always sisters, always hunted, always escaping their hunter, the Pleiades are the only group of stars reliably identified in the Bible. “Canst thou bind the cluster of the Pleiades or loose the bonds of Orion” or “Canst thou guide the bear with her train?” (Job 38). There is a similar passage in Job 9, verse 9, “Which maketh the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades and the chambers of the south” There is also reference in Amos 5, verse 8. “Seek him that maketh the 7 stars and Orion and turneth the shadow of death into morning and maketh the day dark with night, that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name” It cannot be explained why, of all the stellar objects, this little cluster of insignificant stars should have assumed such importance. The mystery deepens. Only 6 of the Pleiades are really visible to the naked eye. How did the ancients know of the 7th? Each ethnic group has its own version to account for the invisible star. E.g “One of the sisters lost her virginity and hid her light in shame”. These legends pre-dated agriculture so there is no connection with sowing and gathering of crops or marking the seasons. They all go back at least 5,000 years so it is impossible to trace how far back they may go but there is evidence that verbal histories may be accurate over tens of thousands of years. One possible explanation: The Pleiades have been rising and setting over great periods of time and the constellations imperceptibly move forward in position. Could the stories pre-date modern man?. Cro-Magnon (you and me) first arose in Europe about 30,000 to 40,000 years ago and gradually our cousin anthropoid, Neanderthal the previous occupier, became extinct. The latter had a larger brain than modern man. The way he buried his dead and other clues indicate a greater spirituality. Some have suggested he had a poor vocal communication and used telepathic communication. Anyway, it may be that Neanderthal developed the myth (when perhaps in the dim and distant past, the stars were clearer) and passed it to Cro-Magnon before modern man spread all over the earth, taking the legend with him. Another thought: Could these legends be connected with the two main Witch’s Sabbaths (Sabbath from Hebrew “to rest”). These fall on the last day of April and 31st October. If so, we would have a definite link with the paranormal (which was the normal in antiquity).. “Witch” is derived from Wicca (or wicce – Celtic for “wise”). In pre-history, witchcraft was a form of benign shamanism. Its origins are shrouded in the mists of time. Possibl

21(continued - I hadn't noticed GR had pruned my last entry) .........Possibly it was adopted by Cro-Magnon from the Neanderthal. Certainly it was well-established and practiced in Babylon, Egypt and Chaldea. It did not really acquire negativity until the rise of the Christian Church which taught “Thou shall not suffer a witch to live” and witch-hunting became an international sport. Len

22. Druids, the high priests and leaders of Celtic Britain and Ireland and elsewhere, who followed pagan traditions of nature and goddess worship, possessed great knowledge of astronomy and preserved in their writing and teachings their respect for trees and natural cycles. These form an important part of folk lore today. In fact the name came from the Greek word for oak which was the Druids sacred tree. The Celtic name for oak was “duir” and “wid” is “to know or see”. Together the two words meant one who knows the wisdom of the oak. Their second sacred tree was the yew which is associated with the seasons of autumn and winter. Easter, the Christian festival borrowed from pre-historic Eoastra, the pagan festival that surrounds the spring equinox is named after the Anglo-Saxon goddess of fertility in the Celtic wheel of the year. Eoastra was the day when the god of light overcame the god of darkness, marking the coming of longer days. It was also the time that the goddess Briged conceived – neatly tying in the pagan myth with the story of the Virgin Mary. It is also an important Sabbath in the witch’s year. It was also the time of year when chickens started laying again; when the first eggs were painted and offered at the shrine to Eoastra. So there’s nothing new on the planet only pattern unfolding into pattern like a fractal. Becoming a Druid meant a lifetime of study, ascending through three levels of elemental understanding to attain spiritual enlightenment. At the final grade of enlightenment, the doors to perception are opened and they may alter consciousness, using shamanistic methods of mind-altering properties, allowing of healing and out-of body experiences. They understand the sacred power and creative force of sound therefore learn all the poems and songs of the tribe and compose their own. The Druid is able to act as philosopher, judge, healer, teacher and has powers of pre-cognition, seeing the future. He is considered to be the master of his craft able to directly access the powers of nature and the earth. As with most pagan shamans, Druids follow the Celtic wheel of the year, celebrating sabbats and esbats of the season. There are modern Druids in the UK today. Carl Jung’s book, “Memories Dreams & Reflections” includes accounts of his meetings with primeval cultures in Africa, India and Ceylon. He recounts of one sad old shaman or medicine man who summed up his present standing in his tribe and of the tribe itself: “In the old days the laibon (medicine man) had dreams and knew (things) but, since the whites were in Africa, no one has dreams any more. Dreams were no longer needed as the whites knew everything”. The divine voice which counselled the tribe was no longer needed as “the whites knew better”. Len

23. The shamans and seers of old invariable went into trance (Latin ‘transere’, to go across) in order to communicate with the spirit world. This altered state of consciousness may be achieved by a number of methods including hallucinogenic drugs, self-hypnosis, whirling (as in Dervishes) and sensory deprivation. Prophets of the bible tended to use the latter, sometime retreating to the wilderness (desert) starving themselves and sometimes resorting to flagellation. They closed their conscious minds and became unaware of their immediate external environment, retreating to the sub-conscious. Many modern mediums, with practice, are able to enter trance at will. The huge technical successes of modern science have obscured a deeper understanding of its place in human knowledge but there is much to be understood about spirituality or consciousness – so far not even defined by science. Evolutionary biologists have so far identified four ways in which religion might be of benefit in terms of evolutionary fitness. The first is to give sufficient explanation of the universe to allow us to control it, perhaps through intercession with a deity or spirit world. Secondly, to make us feel better about life. Thirdly, religions provide and enforce some sort of moral code thus keeping social order. Finally, religious belief might bring a sense of community; of being a member of a group. It would not take even a mediocre intellect to demolish those arguments but still, it’s all the biologists and geneticists have to offer. Changing the way we think of the cosmos is nor easy and there still exists a hard-core of scientists who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the existence of any philosophy outside their own narrow discipline. Possibly they were conditioned by blinkered lecturers at their universities. Casting an eye over the ranks of “experts” it certainly appears that the narrower their field e.g. biology, chemistry, genetics etc., the more blinkered they tend to be. Possibly the most well-known and vociferous God-basher is Prof. Richard Dawkins, geneticist, and some wonder if he is considering a new religion called Science with himself as Deity-in-chief. He can’t call it Scientology as Ron Hubbard, supported by Tom Cruise, got in there first. Dawkin’s latest book “The God Delusion” has back-fired on him as his website, at the school from which he works, has blocked access to www*richarddawkins*net on the grounds that “it is an occult site”. Such is life - or the hand of God!! Investigations into the paranormal more often than not are led by medics and engineers rather than theologians or psychologists although these are often included in the teams. Research is conducted as clinical dissections of popular beliefs, using the strict protocols of modern science in order to lay them at rest rather than prove. To the surprise of most, the most rigorous testing, at centres of learning all over the world, is producing unexpected confirmation of age-old beliefs in phenomena that cannot be explained by the known laws nature. Paranormal senses do exist in living things, not only humans although that is all we can presently cope with. There is accumulating evidence of the psyche, or mind or soul, as defined by Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud, of that hidden element which Jung described as forming part of the “collective unconscious”. Len

Len, I haven't read all of your fascinating thread, but pages back you mentioned that many people believe themselves not to be able to be hypnotised. I know that some people are resistant to hypnosis. Do you have a view on why this should be? Thanks, Joy.

Hi Len. I've only just discovered this thread (so you can ingore my comment on your inactivity in later thread of yours)! As usual, it is fascinating, and obvious that you have done a lot of research. Only one thing I would argue with: you keep referring to 'distant intentionality' and 'life force' as being part of the electro-magnetic spectrum, yet it appears to operate instantaneously over great distances. Surely the electro-magnetic spectrum is confined to the speed of light; could it be that there is another as-yet-to-be discovered spectrum? Remember, though the existence of the e-m spectrum has always been known about (even the ancients could see), it is only relatively recently that it has been encapsulated by science. It is intriguing to note that many who would debunk the 'paranormal' hide behind scientists, yet it was the scientists of the day who refused to look through Galileo's telescope to see the moons of Jupiter. 'There is none so blind as they who will not see.' Rob p.s. sorry to hear that you were an accountant - are you better now?

One more thing... The presumption that conciousness occurs some time after conception, when cell differentiation creates the brain could be called to question if my own memory can be believed - I am sure that I have a memory from just a few hours after conception, at a time when I was just a cluster of cells. If this could be proved, it would also have to call into question how memory is stored, and the extent of our perceptions beyond the five normally-accepted senses. Rob

And there's more... Just had a look at P. van Lommel's site; very interesting reading, too. Have a look at this quote from one of his subjects: “All of my life up till the present seemed to be placed before me in a kind of panoramic, three-dimensional review, and each event seemed to be accompanied by a consciousness of good or evil or with an insight into cause or effect. Not only did I perceive everything from my own viewpoint, but I also knew the thoughts of everyone involved in the event, as if I had their thoughts within me. This meant that I perceived not only what I had done or thought, but even in what way it had influenced others, as if I saw things with all-seeing eyes. And so even your thoughts are apparently not wiped out. And all the time during the review the importance of love was emphasised. Looking back, I cannot say how long this life review and life insight lasted, it may have been long, for every subject came up, but at the same time it seemed just a fraction of a second, because I perceived it all at the same moment. Time and distance seemed not to exist. I was in all places at the same time, and sometimes my attention was drawn to something, and then I would be present there.” So the story of a complete reviewing your life at your demise may be true! Rob

Referring even further back in this thread... Ann in Glos, why is it that so many people (often women) say that they do not understand maths, physics, or chemistry. Putting yourself down like that does not help others to appreciate you. You cook, don't you? If the answer is 'Yes,' then you DO understand maths (with the relationships between numbers), chemistry (with how the different ingredients - i.e. chemicals - in varying proportions can react), and physics (the application of energy forms to accelerate chemical reactions). The fact that you may not be able to understand what Steven Hawkings is talking about (few people really do) should not detract from your abilities; you have been brainwashed by bullying teachers, who could not be bothered to help you by applying a different approach for your understanding. Maths, chemistry, physics, and biology is in all our lives; most of us do understand much of what is going on around us, even if we do not appreciate the full implications. Sit down and analyse your life; I am sure you will be amazed by how much you DO know. Rob

Joy About a quarter of the population is highly susceptible to hypnotism and a quarter almost immune to it. The other 50% fall somewhere in between. When I went to classes and learned the skill, I queried this and understood that this was nothing to do with intelligence but more with the way the subjects had been conditioned in their younger days. Personally, I will 'go under' quickly if I trust the therapist as I will be cooperative. I doubt this would be the case if the hypnotist was of the stage variety. I met once a Japanese practitioner (can't remember his name, we called him Itchy) who said he could hypnotise anyone, and he certainly had no problem with some difficult cases. Hence the word 'almost' in my opening sentence. len

Robert. When I was a counsellor, a weekly event was to go through my case-histories with a 'supervisor' who, in my case, was a consultant psychiatrist with the S. Bucks Health Authority. I had a client who claimed to have memories from when she was six month old. That was a new one on me but, naturally, I would not query this with the client but I did take it up with the consultant who assured me that this was not unheard of. In fact, memory is developed in the foetus from about the 12th week after conception and, occasionally, even the birth (or earlier) may be recalled in later life. Len

Robert Light is part of the electromagnetic radiation field and it travels at about 186,000 X 60 X 60 miles per hour which, as near as dammit, is almost instantaneous - although it takes 8 minutes to get from the sun to earth. . Physicists say there is nothing faster but are they always 100% correct? Maybe, if 'Distant Intentionality' is a subtle form of electro-magnetic radiation there is no method yet of determining its speed. Its just pretty damn quick. Len

Hello again, Len. Long time no reply... I would argue that scientists are fully convinced that nothing can travel faster than light; there seems to be a growing core of scientists who agree that nothing may be able to travel AT the speed of light, but there may be particles that cannot travel SLOWER than the speed of light - i.e. throughout their existence, they are travelling faster than the speed of light (don't ask me how they can be seen!). I have heard that at CERN, particles have been accelerated past the speed of light without actually travelling at the speed of light; an analogous experiment has a particle being fired at a sheet, and appearing the other side WITHOUT ACTUALLY PASSING THROUGH THE MATERIAL. Also, in quantum physics, it has been found that an action upon a particle can have an IMMEDIATE effect on another particle, no matter what the distance. I believe Einstein knew about this, and could not explain it. All these reports are what makes me raise the hypothesis of the existence of another spectrum, perhaps another branch of science that has yet to be determined. Stone age man could not have known of electricity, so lightning, and similar, would have been a wonder to him; having no iron, bronze age man could not have known about magnetism - and, oddly enough, though we know of it now, and can recreate it at will, and can measure it and its effects, we still have no idea what it actually IS. Rob

Robert Why are we quibbling about this? It is just muddling my thread and diverting from the main thrust. If you will read again what I said about the speed of light I queried the accuracy of the belief that nothing travels faster. Len