General Chat

you may wish I hadn't!

It's one of those unanswerable questions, "what would you do if..."

Last year a family friend was taken into hospital and I travelled ( 2 hours each way ) back and forth to the house to meet an occupational therapist etc to see what needed to be done so friend could go home. Found that the place was in need of pest control and deep cleaning etc, so got that done while friend was in care home for some months after hospital. Carers all in place ( ish) too hurriedly to get everything sorted but friend's decision as she was assessed to have "mental capacity".

A year on, am told by a mutual acquaintance, that the situation is pretty dire, Friend is adamant she will not go into care, but is not getting adequate care, that may be her own doing if she's refusing to be looked after? Late 80's bed bound, in a house that's falling apart from lack of maintenance ( ongoing).

Worried but not sure what if anything I can do. I am of little practical use if I go there ( arthritis worsening etc). Really just putting this so I can think lol.

I can empathise...

Does the friend have any family members, also has she set up a power of attorney? Does she own the house outright?

I'm not sure who intervenes if she has no family or next of kin.

Hi Sheila, no family at all, no power of attorney.She owns her house.

I am the closest she has, in that I have known her all my life as she was my late mum's friend since the 50s. I didn't know but she was my godmother also. She did list me as NOK when she was in hospital, though I'm not related, just for someone to be the contact, not that the hospital was any good at doing so as they discharged her to a care home and I had to chase round to find where she was.

I didn't find social services to be terribly helpful, as soon as she was off their hands and home they bowed out and it is really only Age Uk volunteer shopper and the private care co that have any contact with her. She is self funded as far as the carers go, at least till her savings go below a certain level

A difficult situation. Not a lot you can do from a distance and you are probably not young yourself ;-)

Have you tried to persuade her to get a power of attorney.? You should explain that this wouldn’t give anyone the permission to force her into a care home. It would give her an advocate to argue for what she wants.

Even if she had family it doesn’t mean they would be of any help.

lol namelessone I am definitely not young, and feeling older by the second as I've just mis-judged distance and scraped my thumb, as if it wasn't hurting enough already.

I will try and talk to her soon, stressing the advocate angle of a POA, thanks for that, she may just agree.

It may be worth checking with her doctor, surgeries sometimes have an 'elderly' specialist who can help in these circumstances. My late Mum's surgery were quite helpful in this respect, but it can be a bit hit and miss. Always worth contacting some of her local residential homes in case of 'emergency'. My Mum had some respite care after a hip replacement so we had a number of places that we'd reviewed when she finally had to go into care.

Sheila, I have the name of the care home she was in between hospital and home, I visited there and it was fine. There is also one that was recommended by a local which is very luxurious and there is plenty of choice close by. The local Dr's isn't the best but to be fair issues with them may be partly on her side.

Such a shame when it is like that but only so much you can do if someone refuses help. I found once someone refuses help from social services they leave them to it . They are so overstretched in some areas they have no choice.

Best of luck .

Thanks JustGinnie.

Hard for you Rose. It seems she is classed as mentally capable. The problem will be if her mental state deteriorates and she doesn’t have POA in place. It is not something that she should leave as it takes a while to get into place. Who would she nominate though? You? Two POAs I think Health and I can’t remember but might be finance. Quite a responsibility but if it is not in place doctors etc could make decisions for her.

Hi Ann, I think the options would be POA to a solicitor, or to me.

I have looked it up a while back as relative had one in place long before needed. I know there's 2,. One is Lasting power if mental capacity goes, and there's an ordinary one which just covers someone to deal with financial affairs. I have thought about doing it myself, just get it in place.

I think I'll have to broach the subject, but it has been mentioned before ( not by me) when the difficulty of getting cash arose, but response was lukewarm to say the least.

She's always avoided any mention of mortality basically. I mentioned to her once that I had made a will when Dan turned 18 and she said didn't I feel I was "tempting fate".

I think the Lasting Power of Attorney is the old one. The new one covers finance and also Health. These do not have to be the same people. For instance, a friend of mine is down on the Health POA for her other friend as she is the one who does everything. The son has the finance but lives abroad.
Noneof the other persons family do anything for her, other than leach off her. The POA has not been invoked yet as the other friend doesn't trust her son.

Who does your friend put down as next of kin when she goes into hospital? As they, at the moment, are the only people the hospital would talk to.

namelessone she put me down as NOK when she went to hospital.

It's a long story that went on 6 months, but I was the 'named person' for all services to contact, and co-ordinate with I suppose one would say. The care home was good and kept me up to date when I wasn't up there, on and off train strikes were a bit of a problem and booking hotels at busy times. But you do what you can don't you.

Power of Attorney is an option, but do discuss the reasons for it with your friend, and with a solicitor. I had a Power of Attorney for my Mum but the care home took no notice of anything I said because her next door neighbour had already decided everything, so I literally might as well not have had it.

I have POAs in place since T died but it did take a long time (I have two covering both), they have to be signed and dated in a particular order and witnessed also in a particular order. we lost count of the number of times the forms went back and forward for correcting and not always errors by us. But it is comforting to have then in place.

My Mum was the same about death and wills rose, she never did make a will. as it happened she pre-deceased my Dad (when they were both 85) so it just went to him and he did make a will.

Duncan, that sounds wrong. You had a legal right to have a say - as her next of kin And holding her POA. I am assuming you had the newer one that has a section for health not the old Lasting POA.

Hubby did a power of attorney for finances whilst he was considered still mentally capable of making that decision

This was because we had separate bank accounts

He had Alzheimer’s and Lewy body dementia and it was early in his diagnosis

When he was hospitalised in 2015 with sepsis it gave the Lewy body a big push and he became bedbound and unable to care for himself at all .couldn’t even sit up unaided

He was in hospital for ten weeks all together whilst I was trying to get him home ,

In one meeting with a snotty social worker I was rudely told because I didn’t have power of attorney for his health then if SHE decided he would go in a home then neither myself of any family had any say in the matter

My response was then you will kill him because it was his absolute dread to go into a home and indeed I had promised him that it wouldn’t happen all the while I was able to look after him

We did get him home ,with carers coming in 4 times a day but sadly he came home with a chest infection and passed away 3 weeks later


But my point is that family have no say over care if there’s no power of attorney in place

OH and I both made wills years ago, and took out funeral plans. We also did POAs, which in Scotland are much less of a palaver than in England. We did them ourselves so it was very cheap and took about a couple of months. The main cost was the actual POA and a fee for the doctor, who had to certify that we were both fully compos mentis. As he lived next door and knew us both, the time was spent chatting about local goings-on!!

OH's cousin, in England, did one for her mother when she began to get dementia and it required a solicitor, a court appearance and a lot of money.

When a family member showed early signs of dementia, but could still make clear judgements, she decided to talk to a solicitor about POA and was asked to nominate someone else, who she felt would be someone she was sure would act and speak up for her, so that the Power was only invoked, when the time was right.
I was that person and had to sign forms from her solicitor recording this fact.
When the situation deteriorated and it was time for the 2 sons to be granted POA, the solicitor again wrote to me asking if I had any objections and was invited to give reasons. Only when I agreed was the Power granted.
A good solicitor will look out for the best interests of their client, but the client has to be willing in the first place.....

I know how elderly people can sometimes be fiercly independant. When my mother became less able to manage day to day tasks, but wanted to stay in her bungalow, social services explained to me that they couldn't put in any help, while Mum had full mental capacity to decide. As I lived about 150 miles away, I felt I couldn't come home and leave the situation, so a heart to heart conversation resulted in Mum being willing to try a carer for a while.
Mum soon befriended her, looked forward to her visits and we were so grateful that this enabled Mum to spend many more happy years in her own home.

Rose
I think if the lady is bed bound, this would soon develop into a medical problem of health issues eg. bed sores and personal hygiene and so that might have to be the overall consideration.

To take up Duncan's point.
People 'in authority' can make strange decisions.
Mother-in-law lived in Hampshire and we visited frequently and were on the list of primary contacts for her telephone call helpline. We were contacted to tell us if a call had been activated, although friends who lived local were often the ones who called round if it was a minor issue.
All went well until one day, M in L's neighbour phoned to ask after her, as she'd seen an ambulance at the house. We knew nothing about this, nor did her friends and when we phoned the call company, we were quoted Data protection issues wouldn't allow them to tell us anything. Feeling sad that she was probably somewhere rather worried and frightened, we had to guess where she might have been taken and rang a hospital Fortunately, as her only relatives in UK, she had nominated me as next of kin, so we were able to get information and go to visit her.

Been moving the computer today so not been around to reply, sorry.

Thanks everyone, lots to think about. I might speak to her tomorrow or this next week.