General Chat

I cant understand why the government has not sent the army in to disperse the crowds that are gathering in the streets after the pubs and bars close at 10pm or is it just me thinking this I'm sure the police are doing a good job but there is not enough of them and the sight of that one police car surrounded by those crowds in liverpool the other night was frightening

The government have made them available but they have not been asked for.

The army may assist the civil power in the case of problems such as severe flooding and so on and so forth.
It may not get involved with keeping good order on the streets . That is the task of the police. The police do not expect in a democracy full on confrontation with citizens.
Maybe living close to Turkey and Greece, countries with a poor democratic record, it is easy to lose sight of what an army is for in a democracy. Greece, Cyprus and Turkey are no strangers to using the Army for propping up an unpopular government

Other than the Household Regiments the Army is not allowed to bear arms within the UK except at its training grounds.
This general principle dates back to 1666. Deviations from it eg Peterloo, Northern Ireland have not been very successful.

In a democracy laws have to fit in with the will of the people not the other way around.

The crowds weren't an organised violent riot when the Army may, (as a last resort) be used.

They were the result of yet another not-thought-through 'law' created by this Government.
Yes, we're short of policemen - but then, what 'flavour' Government got rid of them?
Johnson also voted to cut the police force in 2010.
He 'promised' to bring them back (4,000 so far) - but they're trainees, not the established police we lost.

If they'd sent in the Army, not only would it have shown how short of police we are, it would have indicated how wrong the Government was, and would also have indicated a despotic tendency - like non-democratic countries, like China had.

It's one thing, the Army giving covid tests, yet another to send them in to 'quell' a group of people, all thrown out of pubs at the same time!

Those people, when dispersed, would then have squeezed themselves onto public transport, to get home, thereby spreading the virus, anyway, so gathering in the streets, in the open air, was actually less likely to spread it!

Pat made a statement of fact so why assume that her closeness to Greece and Turkey clouded her understanding :-S

I am fairly sure that the police will be reluctant to bring the army in. One senior policeman I know was aghast at that suggestion.

Anyway, what would soldiers do? Shoot them and bring down more trouble on their heads than it's worth? Remember Northern Ireland?

Linda, I know the area and one huge crowd of mostly-young people in one city square (out of numerous squares) is unlikely to bring down the wrath of the Police. If rules were more solidly laid down as they are now, it might be worth collecting a few fines but not in that one situation of which you wrote. Many young people could not or would not pay the fines and to send them to gaol would not be feasible the way things are so it would be an utter waste of time.

The police are exercising the caution and common sense that I would expect - and they need to stay safe as much as they can too because the next thing they attend may be a road accident involving numerous casualties.

The only occasion that I can think of where the army may be useful is one of logistics, moving freight and ensuring clear passage of goods - and that may come with Brexit.

Rollo I understand exactly what goes on. I have actually served, I was in the forces for 5 years and married to someone who spent 25 yrs as a serviceman. We stood up for democracy.

I saw Boris twice say the army was there to help if required. I was just making a statement of what has happened and not happened.

No one suggest they would or should be armed. It might be interesting to do a head count of the police who are ex service - you may be surprised how many service people go into the emergency services.

I am proud of our service people.

Where I live has no bearing on what I know about UK as we watch UK television programmes.

I just made a statement and will not be shot down by someone who is supercilious and thinks he's got a right to snipe at everyone on this board.

My daughter lives on the wirral and s.i.l . often has to go into liverpool on work and has I visit them often before this I know the area I did not mean the army to be armed but just their presence on the street might help after all we are living in very difficult times

Even the army when asked on TV were nonplussed at what they could do to help with covid , other than stating the b obvious, that they could not help with crowds of inebriate cross people.

I wore three pips on my shoulder but I don't let it get me down.

Boris Johnson is a cueless moron who says the first thing that comes into his head. He is entirely to blame for the terrible mess that the UK is in right now from "over ready" brexit to "moonshot" testing and inability to lead or make decisions. "Ask the army" is typical of his nonsense.

The Scots are walking towards the door and who can blame them.

Bloody good aim with an orange!

Gosh, what regiment were you a captain in. Rollo?

McAlpine's Fusilliers?

Linda, it is my hometown and I still have cousins living and working there.

An army presence could have exacerbated the situation and, anyway, I think the police approach was the right one.

Once, when OH and I were walking from the Plaka to the Acropolis, we rounded the corner to be greeted by numerous armed police and assault vehicles and large numbers of police (some could well have been soldiers incognito - it happens, not just in Greece) donning riot gear. As OH and I made our way through them I wondered what massive uprisings were due to happen..

It transpired that all it was was a demonstration by Greek islanders who had banded together to protest at something the government wanted to impose on them. It was not at all a big demonstration as we discovered as we returned. A massive overkill by the authorities. Fortunately, Liverpool was not goaded into taking such action.

I'm sure I saw Pat among the island protesters. ;-)

So it's only the UK that is in a 'terrible mess' then? :-S

What about Europe, the US in fact come to that, the rest of the world?

Well then I dont know what the answer is these people you think they are going to be ok and the virus is not going to get them I can just see the numbers going up and up and us older ones who have not seen family for nearly a year because of this will have a lonely christmas

It will take riots to get the Army involved I can see them happening befote long this country is in a mess Covid has brought the best & worse in people young & older folk not being told to do this that or whatever wait & see before we are in total lock down .it beggers belief that people are not learning how many deaths before we say hay it's a problem :-S

The whole world is in a mess. This is the nature of a worldwide pandemic!

Just over 50 years ago in Canada ............. October 10, 1970, to be precise ............ there began what came to be called the Quebec Crisis.

Canadian rules and laws are pretty much the same as in the UK, after all we follow the Westminster principle of government, so what happened here at that time might give you an idea of how Britain (Boris!) could respond.

There were a large number of Quebecers who wanted separatism from Canada (there are still), and there was a lot of agitating for self-government, etc etc. Quebec already had a lot of freedom .......... they use French laws, the school system is French, etc etc. But things were not moving fast enough for a small group of very angry people formed the Front de Liberation du Quebec (FLQ) which developed into a true terrorist group. They had conducted a reign of bombings for several years ..... letter boxes, military bases, a stock exchange, banks, etc etc

In an attempt to force events to happen, they had already kidnapped James Cross, the British Trade Commissioner, and issued a manifesto demanding that what they wanted should happen. The Federal Government under Pierre Elliott Trudeau refused point-blank and stated they would never give in to terrorists.

Sounds very British, doesn't it???

So on October 10 they kidnapped Pierre LaPorte, Labour Minister in the Quebec Government, who was a federalist supporter. Negotiations and threats followed, and on October 15, the Quebec Premier asked for military troops to be deployed in the province.

On October 16, the Federal Cabinet proclaimed the War Measures Act, which suspended civil liberties. This allowed the police in Quebec to execute searches and arrest suspects and FLQ sympathizers, without any warrants being issued by judges.

The response ...................

On October 17, LaPorte's body was found in the trunk of a car left near the Montreal airport.

That's when we, in the rest of Canada, really sat up and took notice ......... the terrorists' assassination of a public figure stunned everyone.

It took another 6 weeks before the police found and released James Cross, and the terrorrists negotiated themselves a free trip to Cuba.

James Cross is still alive, in the UK.


Do you really want the War Measures Act to be declared, whether that is in Liverpool, a part of Manchester, a county, or the whole country???

Is the behaviour of bloody idiots equatable to terrorists?



Yes, Canada called in the troops to help in March ............... when provinces requested help. They were sent to care homes in two provinces to help with major outbreaks that had overwhelmed staff and led to a lot of deaths. They were unarmed, dressed in their work-day uniforms, as many trained medics as possible, others were quickly trained in how to care for sick people.

Quebec and Ontario were the only two provinces to in such dire need.

Troops in Britain could be called in for the same purpose.

Now that is a good idea, Sylvia, to use medics in the way you've told us.

I believe the UK Army is ready to give covid tests,