General Chat

maggie .................

you asked a couple of days ago .............

"So why were we brought up to believe the Victorians etc were so 'upright'?"

What I read somewhere, and believe it to be accurate, is that the "uprightness" seeped down from Victoria and Albert who were the "upright moral couple" of the time.

BUT it only seeped down in its entirety to the middle and upper middle classes to any great degree. They became the ones who protected their daughters ......... or tried to; who shielded table legs, etc etc.

These were the shopkeepers, small business owners. Daughters of course were not always safe from handsome and/or predatory tutors, piano teachers, etc, but would be married off or sent elsewhere.

The upper classes still behaved much as they had before .......... with daughters who got pregnant being hurriedly married off or taken on the Grand Tour by Mama before returning home either with Mama having a new baby, or having had the child adopted overseas. Wives produced the heir plus a spare then many of them took lovers ..... after all their husbands did!

The "lower" classes, the ag labs, mill workers, shop workers, all still got pregnant, as they had before, especially around May Day and harvest festival when the villagers would be partying. Disappearing into the woods was winked at.

Sometimes the girls married the father of the child/ren, other times not. It seems that many of the parents would accept a son marrying a pregnant girl or one who had 1 or 2 illegitimate children ........... after all, that showed she was fecund, and would produce more children to help look after the old ones in the family. An illegitimate child often seems to have just been accepted into the family, and the grandparents would look after it.

One of my maternal great-aunts looked after the 3 (at least) illegitimate children of one of he youngest daughters, while the girl seemingly went to work in the mill ....... at least that 2 censuses call her "cotton mill worker". Gt aunt was honest on those same censuses. I found it rather amusing that the daughter had the middle name of "love"!!!

OH's ancestors show another variant ......... one that was explained to me by the descendant of one of OH's gt gt uncles.

The joint ancestors were yeomen corn millers and farmers in the area where Lancashire/Westmorland/Yorkshire all meet. They never seemingly owned any property but were well-regarded and reasonably wealthy. The family is still tenant farming in the area.

My informant pointed out that OH's gt gt grandmother was "only" 5 months pregnant when she got married. Many of her line going back and coming forward were so advanced in pregnancy that some had the midwife waiting at the door "just in case".

This was seemingly accepted ......... maybe a version of the bride being proved fecund, or an acceptance of the Scottish "bundling" while courting.

Back in the 40's you could have life insurance on penny policys .
That penny a week on the individual paid for their funeral.
Among the docs I found was my GM's death certificate (Bowel caner)
signed by D V Salkeld and the receipt for GM's funeral £2-10--6 CWS
for a hearse and following car and death notification in local newspaper

And if you had no insurance but needed a doctor, you could pay for it ......... over time if necessary.

My brother had some form of heart trouble when he was about 14. I can just remember him having to lie down all the time, either upstairs in bed or on the settee in the front room. That relegated me age ~4 to the horsehair sofa against the wall. I hated that sofa ........... horsehairs pricked the back of my legs in my short dresses. So I'm afraid I was a snotty nosed kid sister, and not too sympathetic to him.

I learned later that went on for about 6 months in 1944/45, and the doctor made regular house calls.

As a result, Mum and Dad were paying off the doctor's fees by a weekly payment to the Doctor's Man who would visit the house every week with his little black book, take the money and mark Dad as paid that week.

That went on until around 1953 or 54 at least. The doctor was well retired by then, and I have no idea whether the full bill was ever paid off in full or just let drop.

Dad was working in restricted employment at the time, but obviously no sort of insurance plan.

It was the certificates kindled an interest in my family's genealogy.
From them I traced back to my GGGF and Mother on both sides of my family tree.
My paternal GF died in Purdeysburn Hospital following ill health. I believe without proof that he died of ECT. Letters to the Hospital will not confirm or deny it. His wife Sarah died a few months after him. They are in the same grave.GF's Father was Francis husband of Roseanna, and Francis was the son of another Francis. I have it detailed on Belfast Forum under the user name welder (my FIL's occupation) I also have a tidier version on Wikitree where I am Irvine-1058

David, I've found, amongst my granny's hoard, membership to the RAOB (both granny and grandad were members, and the Oddfellows.
Both these organisations were also insurance agencies - providing financial support in times of need.
I have a letter from the RAOB offering to pay for my grandad's stay in a 'Home of Recovery' in the 1950's when he had kidney failure.

I also have letters from grandad's best mate Stan, who was badly injured in an accident in the Docks in 1924.
The RAOB paid for him to stay in a 'Home of Recovery' after his operations - the Dock authorities did nothing to help him.

Maggie, my paternal GF, Samuel Irvine was a docker in Belfast
He became unwell and consequently was selected for work less and less.
No earnings, no benefits. This while Belfast was being blitzed. He died in
Purdysburn Hospital Belfast March 1940.

Following my Mother's I found in a small case under Father's bed my maternal GF's birth certificate, his wedding certificate to his second wife my GM Also GF's and my
Father's death certificates, and GF's pocket watch.

So why were we brought up to believe the Victorians etc were so 'upright'?

My grandmother was a very Victorian lady, born in 1884, strict as all get out.

When I eventually bought their marriage certificate about 15 years ago .............. she and grandfather had both lied about their age, she was 19 he was 17, but they added 1 year for her and 2 for him.

It took me another 7 or 8 years before I noticed the date of their marriage and remembered Mum's birthdate .............. yep, they'd anticipated by a couple of months!

I'm pretty sure Mum never knew the discrepancy, because their wedding anniversary was never celebrated, not even their 50th in 1952.

Could have been. Could have been family.
My great gran (Agnes) had no family close by.
She moved from Suffolk to Bournemouth, leaving her 'out of wedlock' child, (born in Grimsby) with her parents.
In Bournemouth, she met my g grandad (Arthur) - who had moved from London, leaving his wife behind, possibly in an asylum. (Gosh, this sounds bad! :-0)
They moved to Southampton, where she was known as Mrs P.
They eventually married secretly in 1921 when his first wife died - after 9 children.

Then, gran (G) didn't get on with her mum. Great gran didn't want gran to marry grandad, (C) as he was very recently widowed (this was 1924) - and I mean recently. According to letters between G and C, they were having 'X' (not sure whether that's a snog or something else) after 5 weeks, (and for 2 of those weeks, G was away in Suffolk) but one definitely closely followed the other. Gran thought she was pregnant at least twice during their courtship!
Great gran called him 'soiled goods'
Hypocrisy obviously wasn't a word in her vocabulary.
Great gran was also expecting another baby, and, apparently, as the eldest daughter, it was gran's 'duty' to help.

As Agnes wouldn't give her consent to G and C marrying (Arthur, it appears, had no say in the matter) G and C waited until G was 21, in 1925 before marrying.
Agnes wasn't invited to the wedding.
They eventually made up, but when Agnes died in 1947 , G found her marriage certificate, and was very angry.

It's very strange reading love letters between your grandparents :-S

Oh yes - and my mum didn't get on with my gran!

We lived up north, in Lancashire, maybe there was a difference?

Sylvia
My great gran had all 10 of her babies n the Workhouse Hospital.
My great grandad had a good job - but the Workhouse meant a doctor was always available - and it was free! The address on the cert is 'The Municipal Incorporated Hospital'

I looked to see if Gran could have had my uncle in the Workhouse, but in 1939, it was turned into a food centre and a place for the homeless (and I presume bombed out) to stay. My mum was born in 1930 and her sister in 1926, I'm not sure where they were born. I don't have their certificates!

My mum had all her children (born 1949, 1950, 1952 and 1956) in hospital.
The first two at Mtarfa hospital, Malta, the third at Haslar hospital in Gosport, and the last (me) at Southlands Hospital, Shoreham near Worthing.

maggie ..............

my brother(1929) and I (1940) were both born at home, presumably with the aid of the local midwife.

OH's mother went into a very small nursing home to have him in 1938, in a small village just outside Chester. It was literally just over the border in Wales, so he can claim to have been born in Wales of a Welsh mother (father was a Yorkshireman). Three years later, the border between England and Wales was moved and the village became English. I don't know where she had his sister in 1946, have always assumed at home.


I remember reading one of James Herriot's books about life as a Yorkshire vet in which he wrote about the birth of his first child. His wife went to stay in a bedroom at the midwif'e's house to have the baby and stayed for a few days afterwards. The midwife's husband was quite used to that, as his wife tried to have every baby born in that room, their only spare bedroom! If I remember correctly, babys father was only allowed very brief visits with his wife and baby!

I think the most common place for babies to be born was at home, in the "marriage" bed, with a midwife and possibly a doctor if you could afford it, if not your mother, aunt, sister or the woman down the street who'd had 10 babies so knew what she was doing!

Of course the infirmary wing of the local Workhouse also provided a free place to have your baby born from the 19th century right up to the NHS being founded.

The standard in the 1950s when my brother's wife was having her children was to have the first child in hospital, then any more were born at home with a midwife in attendance unless there was a medical reason for a hospital to be used again. They were living with us when their first child was born, and I remember brother bringing his wife and baby daughter home after about 10 days in hospital, by bus because he had no car and couldn't afford a taxi.


I suspect that your gran was lucky to be able to go to hospital to have the baby, or maybe there was a need for that. The application to have the baby there presumably would have been requested by her doctor.

Your grandfather might well have been working almost full time, as ships were still bringing goods in or shipping out.

Gwyn - Granny was a hoarder! :-S :-S
My mum actually managed to lose 3 boxes of gran's stuff, before we'd even looked through them - goodness knows what was in them!

Maggie,

Your family has kept some really interesting paperwork giving you an insight into how they lived their lives.That was a lot of money for a family to find.

We haven't got anything like your wonderful variety. I have got a card from the Eye and Ear Hospital, Portsmouth. Not sure if it was late 1940s or early 50s, but it says on it that it should always be kept.
So I did.

Today I have found my grans 'acceptance' into a Maternity Hospital for the birth of my uncle in 1940 - 8 years before the NHS was founded.

It reads:
Municipal and Child Welfare Centre
New Clinic
1, East Park Terrace
Southampton



Dear Mrs S*****
Your application to be admitted to the
Municipal Maternity Unit has been considered by the
Assessment Committee, and they have agreed that you
shall be admitted, and that the fee to be paid by you
will be £4/15-
I would remind you again that the sum of
£2/5/- must be paid prior to your admission
Yours faithfully

East Park Terrace is now Southampton University.

The average pay for a factory worker in 1940 was £248/5-6 - that's under £5 a week - £4/15- is almost a weeks wages.

My grandad was a dock worker - the wages were lower.
Sometimes he didn't work - dockies would turn up, and be 'chosen' to work for the day. Upset one of the foremen and you wouldn't work. Also, this was wartime - how much work did he get?

What happened if the Assessment Committee 'considered' woman should not be admitted? Where would she go?

So many questions - thank goodness for the NHS!

Although my three siblings were Christened/Baptised, I wasn't!
Caused great fun when I went to Saudi, and had to prove I wasn't Jewish! :-S

I have my Baptism certificate. was baptised Christ Church, Shieldfield, Newcastle

1945, half a mile from the house I was born in 200 Portland Road. :-)

How wonderful.

Ooh Sharron! That's so sad.

Both my brothers were born in Malta, in 1949 and 1950. They came back on the Empire Windrush early in 1951. I expect that was 'fun' for my mum - two children under 2 on a crowded boat.
I found their very impressive Maltese birth certificates amongst my gran's stuff a couple of years ago - but never noticed the small baptismal certificate.
My eldest brother's may be in a box too!

This box has photo's, and lots of gran's RAOB, women's institute and Labour Party stuff in it, along with an 'Empire Day 1916 certificate and a certificate given to everyone at the end of WWII, and loads of telegrams etc etc.