General Chat

Well, THAT little magic roundabout jaunt caused a BSOD...........didn't even get into it.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOTTTETzX4
:-D

I've seen the posts mentioning foreign drivers.

When I worked in my last job I was lucky enough to be able to get home for lunch and most days I did so. We live in a tourist city and the approach to one larger roundabout often found people queuing at lunch times as a foreigner had decided to go around the roundabout the wrong way. In my time I never saw the driver cause an accident because we all drew to a halt until the manoeuvre had been carried out and, quite often but not always, the driver realized what he/she had done. It required the patience of those approaching the roundabout.

I expect it is still done and more so now as the new roundabout has funny little quirks in the middle (can't describe it any other way). In fact, I have seen a couple of non-foreign drivers bamboozled by the quirks.

I think everyone ought to look carefully at the road signs (in one town I am in regularly they often change and a few people I know have been fined) and concentrate on the job in hand.

http://goo.gl/PKXXWX

If you are driving and see a Saxo or Corsa take care they are as unpredictable as New Forest deer at this time of year.

don't feed

I spent nearly twenty years driving a motorbike to the West End via north London.
It wasn't scooters but genetically suntanned twenty-somethings in BMWs which were the problem.
But in well over a quarter of a million miles I got away with only minor scrapes and bumps, although none involved the afore-said gentlemen,

Yes, I know that "fronting" is illegal but in practise it is only dealt with ex post facto.

Insurance companies rely on the well worn principle that they can refuse liability if statements on the policy are untrue or become untrue.

The police ( there are less and less of them ) rely on ANPR either on fixed or mobile cameras. These will find no problem with fronted insurance. It is wildly unlikely that there will be any other check even if there is a traffic offense. The insurance company not the police will check for fronting but only after the RTA claim. A "fronting" driver will usually pass a routine police stop.

Consequently fronting is rampant. It is not only young drivers either. Lots of people who live in areas of high insurance use other addresses for their car insurance or omit to say that they drive into a high risk area for work each day.

If those engaged in fronting of one sort another automatically became co-defendants in case of a serious RTA then that would be a powerful disincentive to front.

In north London ( using the 1964 boundaries for "north" ) there are hordes of young men with scooters which may or may not belong to the keeper and for sure are not insured. The validity of any driving license held is also questionable. In itself this would be a problem. Unfortunately these guys have become heavily involved in street muggings and instant smash n grabs in convenience stores etc. Whereas in the past it was fairly easy to avoid the urban downsides of the Holloway Road and its environs these scooter gangs can ruin anybody's day. The police do their best but it is a game of wack a mole. Taking away the licence disk has made things even easier.

Just because something is illegal does not mean it won't happen.

Rollo - fronting has now been illegal for some time and anyone who does this will find that their insurance is invalid.

There is a large ex-govt organisation known as the Traffic & Road Research Lab in Berkshire (TRRL) which carries out all kinds of research into the physical safety of vehicles and trucks as well as driver behaviour. It is closely associated with the Transport Studies unit at Cranfield Inst. of Technology nr Milton Keynes.
http://www.trl.co.uk/

Both have researched the issue of accidents and aged drivers ( > 70 ) including the issue raised by Errol of them kicking off accidents while not being directly involved. Various studies over the years have confirmed that this is a perceived not an actual problem.

There are those among us who for one reason or another find that their journey is taking longer than expected with the real possibility of being late. They then find themselves stuck on , say, a winding cross country A road behind a Volvo V70 driven by an oldish guy wearing a trilby going at a steady 55mph slowing down for each and every 30mph. They may get a bit irritated especially if Mr Trilby Hat then gets stuck behind a 40 ton semi and ignores a great opportunity to overtake ...

Mr Late (pun intended) may eventually tempted into a chancy overtaking manouvre on a stretch of county three lane and then ....

Who is to blame, Mr Trilby Hat or Mr Late ? Or the LHD semi driven by a Lithuanian ? Or the daft TRRL which insists on a blanket 60mph limit and traffic calming measures?

The Victorians used to call this kind of thing consequences. Amazing as it may seem most elderly drivers restrict themselves ( e.g. by avoiding the M6 on a Friday night ) as they get older and take advice as and when to stop driving altogether.

OTOH hot blooded youth tends to eschew advice and has a one in four chance of becoming past tense. I speak as an Essex man. Insurance companies charging £ 4 K / year are dropping a fairly heavy hint.

Imho a serious toughening re. under 30s driving on their parent's insurance when they are in fact the main driver is way overdue. Possibly making the parent a co defendant in any serious accident where their offspring is the accused party may concentrate a few minds.

btw a lot of bus and truck drivers are over 65 but yes, they do have an annual medical. Maybe not in Glasgow.

Of course not - and HGV drivers over the age of 65 have to provide an annual medical report anyway.

and it's unlikely many of them would be classed as elderly

After watching idiotic lorry drivers on the M6 yesterday wasn't surprised to discover that they are involved in over 50% of all motorway accidents.

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/media/21-10-2013-lorry-fatalities-research

A slightly different subject but blood alcohol levels cannot realistically be set at zero because of the possibility of false positives.

However, nobody is saying that younger drivers are necessarily better but the fact remains that the current self certification scheme is flawed. It would be interesting to see independent research whereby a sample of older drivers who consider themselves perfectly capable and fit to drive are tested to see if they actually are.

Older drivers may indeed not be directly involved in a high proportion of RTAs but, as pointed out by other members, can be a contributing factor in other accidents, eg driving too slowly or in the incorrect lane.

Not 92 anyroad

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p035cfzf

Poor lane discipline annoying though it can be is not a signficant factor in motorway RTAs. Reactions to it such as flashing lights, driving closely behind, boht of these, undertaking will result in a wigging from the fuz and possibly a charge for DCA.

The best solution for this is to allow plenty of time for the journey, plenty of stopping distance and tune in to Classic FM.

Fatal RTAs are not a significant cause of death for the over 50s. OTOH they make up 25% of deaths for males 15-25. These are the people most likely to complain about bumbling half blind slow accident prone older drivers .....

I would add poor lane discipline to causes of motorway accidents, although motorways are far safer than urban roads.
On a three or four lane motorwayor multiple carriageway it is quite common to have a vehicle doing less than 50mph in one of the outer lanes (I could categorise the most likely drivers) leading to bunching behind, undertaking (OK, I know that's wrong) and lane switching to the outer lane to get past (more bunching) into someone's two second safety gap causing them to brake and a domino effect on following vehicles.
"Lorry races" due to speed limiters also lead to bunching when one lorry overtaking another with a two miles per hour speed advantage blocks everything for a couple of miles or more. Stretches of the A1 are notorious for this, as I found out again last Saturday.

I agree with Rollo....
It seems to me that when an older person does something like driving the wrong way on a motorway it makes news,
But...all these crashes that happen so much are so commonplace that they are not that newsworthy.

I'm always reading that on the A55 which is an e road with lots of traffic heading for Holyhead for the ferry to Ireland, they seem to have lots of crashes....just seen mention of another one on my FB page as I get Welsh newspaper on there.
We get a lot of foreign lorries on it as well which doesn't help.

Even on the smaller roads around Snowdonia we have had lots of bicycle rallies and if your stuck behind bikes on a bend there are always some cleverclog impatient drivers waiting to get past where it is unsafe.

All of those things you quoted that would improve road safety look common sensical (for want of another word) to me.

They will have people bleating but if they value life so little then they have to know that others value life more highly.

If you go here:

http://www.crashmap.co.uk/

You can enter a postcode and discover that there are a vast number of reportable accidents. Many of the lowest category ( no injury ) could quite easily have been more serious and then there are the near misses...

I worked for a long time as a highways engineer both in the UK and abroad before finding something more lucrative which did not involved wrecks on the highway at 2am.

Oz has a lousy safety record although they are always dreaming up new rules and regulations such as the recent vendetta against people with diabetes. The major reason for the high rate of fatal accidents in NZ and Oz is drink driving and pot.

The usual RTA disasters are being under the influence of drugs/alcohol, using mobile phones and "not looking". Older drivers including those over 80 are not a significant factor in road accidents which is why UKGov does not waste a lot of time and money ( not to mention political ill will ) by somehow driving the over 80s off the road.

The root reasons for most accidents are (a) going too fast (b) not looking and (c) being lost.

Prior to the advent of SatNav being lost was a factor in around 10% of accidents. Being old, even very old, is not.

Older people > 80 are unlikely to use SatNav unless it is integrated into their car and even then often not. Going the wrong way on a motorway is very rare. The most common cause is being used to driving on the other side of the road and even then it is rare. So far as it happens road works temporary contraflows are a significant factor.

OTOH driving too fast, missing an exit and then reversing (!!!) is very common. Older people rarely do this 'cos they tend to drive within the speed limit.

Regardless of which political party is in power fatal and severe injury accidents cost the public finances shed loads of money and so reducing such accidents is always going to be be high on the wish list.

Long experience has shown that the width and depth of human folly is infinite i.e. no matter what you do it is next to impossible to improve people's driving or stop them doing daft and dangerous things.

As most people are fairly law abiding ( but not good drivers ) speed limits have a massive impact on the incidence of serious accidents. That is why despite all the huffing and puffing the UK motorway speed limit remains at 70 mph max with large chunks subject to lower limits. The trend in urban areas is towards a 20mph limit apart from principal highways.

Older people tend to drive more slowly than the average mostly within the legal speed limit though not very much so. This has been widely observed and is very unpopular with the large number who drive at, say, 40mph in a 30mph zone and consider themselves "safe". Rhubarb.

Let's move on to "didn't see him coming".

There are three common reasons for this.

(1) one or more vehicles involved in the accident was going too fast. Bikers especially should think about this when approaching junctions.

(2) distraction within the car eg kids, mobile phones

(3) poorly designed highway.

There has been a lot of enforcement activity on the first two as it costs next to nothing while the improvement of badly designed highways is expensive and thus unlikely until sufficient blood price has been paid.

Some of the worst roads for major accidents where highway design is a key factor are in Yorks & Lincs/East Midlands, SW England and S Wales. The same areas are noted for their scrooge like attitude to public spending on roads. Yes, Lincolnshire, we are afraid.

(4) cheap Chinese tyres ; the abysmal standards of such tyres in the wet or with a year's usage is scandalous. Although they may be legal the dire performance can easily turn a problem into a nightmare.

Following the principles of Darwinism by the time a driver has got to the age of 70 he/she will have accumulated a lot of road experience possibly some of it from the uni. of hard knocks. Experience is easily the best way to avoid accidents despite the many hazards. That is the key reason why young drivers have so many accidents and older ones do not.

Older drivers tend to avoid situations in the first place rather than relying on "swift reflexes" . FWIW I am over 60 and can still reduce guys of 25 to a sweaty wreck on the squash court so reflexes are not everything.

By far the quickest ways to greatly improve road safety would be very unpopular.

a. 20 mph speed limit in urban areas ( this will undoubtedly happen )
b. reduce alcohol limits to EU norms ( they are currently nearly twice as high ) and zero limit for first year of driving / under 21
c. 50mph limit on non urban classified roads except motorways
d. no HGV in urban areas 7am-7pm
e. young drivers ( under 21 ) not to have passengers also under 21 (except spouse and children) even if they hold a driving licence (France has this)
f. enforcement of UK law on drivers/vehicles from other parts of the EU.
g. reversal of the policy of turning off lighting on motorways
h. police to have the power of imposing an instant ban of up to one month with the option of confiscating the vehicle for that time

For every incident of senior moments with a handful of aging drivers there are a bunch of serious and fatal incidents caused by careless people in a hurry.

The large reduction in fatal accidents since 1960 has largely been the result of safety measures, speed limits and much safer cars/improved A&E systems rather than better driving. Reductions have ceased and annual fatal accident totals are rising, signficantly in some areas, eg Dorset, Lincs.

As the DOfE maintains its skinflint attitude you may expect further driving restrictions mainly in the shape of more speed limits with average speed enforcement systems.

:-0

There is on the A1 (M), a dedicated left turn (get in this lane) lane about 1/2 mile long leading up to the A15......you wouldn't believe how many drivers get in this lane and in the last 100 yds or so, suddenly realise they don't want to be in this lane.......now, they cant ALL be elderly.........

I believe that poor eyesight and lack of observation are an under-reported cause of accidents.
There is no eye test required between learning at (say) 18 and compulsory renewal at 70.
Nor any incentive to wear glasses even if prescribed.
The first thing a driver at fault in an accident is lokely to say is "Sorry mate, I didn't see you".
Even when you renew your licence at 70 if it's only for a car or motorcycle then you only self-declare that your eyesight is up to standard.
I believe that in Australia enforcement is much stricter and that the need for spectacles is endorsed on your licence and that you must carry a spare pair?

Of course in my last posting I meant the other driver turned RIGHT too soon, sorry.

I think I am going to give up now and refresh my brain as well as my stomach. Meanwhile here are a few more apologies for anything else I am likely to get wrong today - sorry, sorry, sorry.

I think I'll have to get my brain into gear as some of the sad sack drivers ought to have done!

:-S