General Chat

Do not profess to understand the politics and the mind set
of people in power.
It beggars belief how people can inflict pain and death on the
most vulnerable in their countries.
I find the situation in Syria very distressing and the deaths of the
children really upsetting.
The news reports are very graphic and other countries do not seem
to be in any hurry to help them and more people are dying a terrible
death.
Am I naive in my understanding of the situation.

Emma

No - it isn't easy to follow those awful occurrences.

I sometimes wonder why killing by gas, etc is considered more terrible than drones dropping 'conventional' bombs ad hoc.

I found many of the events in Syria very chilling and disturbing - especially those involving children.

There are so many conflicting reports, so I do not know if it was the Syrian forces or the rebels that were responsible for this latest atrocity, but no matter who it was, the mass slaughter of people, especially children, is abhorrent, unforgivable, and totally unacceptable.

Alas, I think the situation will worsen as I fear the way Obama in the USA, Hollande in France, plus Cameron & Hague here in the UK - are talking, that we may be drawn into another Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, scenario.

Will the UN be able to get anywhere,
that's if they are allowed.

I too find it very distressing that the children are being targetted. One little boy broke my heart when he ran sobbing, I am sure he was too little to understand, the close up of his distressed face was too awful.

I don't understand the politics fully either, it seesm six of one and half dozen of the other. I don't know which side is right. I only see that the children are suffering and being taught to hate. There can't be a happy ending I'm sure.

I agree Ann. Trouble spots in the world are distressing
and it's happening all over and suppose it always will.
Like OFITG I don't know who is responsible but fear
the worst outcome.

Emma

Did not the USA use chemicals in Vietnam, wiping out people plus their food crops?

I don't know the politics of it either
but do think we should keep our nose out of it,thats my opinion

I find it so difficult to keep my nose out when we have seen the harrowing photos this week. Most of us are old people who have had a life. These are innocent children with all the hopes and aspirations of a good life and a better world. Snuffed out in an instant - for what purpose?

It is cold blooded murder and the murderers need to quickly be brought to account.

When I look at the ongoing problems in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Afghanistan, North & South Korea, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Yemen, the border areas between India & Pakistan, Israel & Palestine, and Cyprus, to name but a few - I cannot help but think that the interference from the so called Western Nations, over many decades, solely to protect their own self interests, leaves much to be desired :-(

If past interference is anything to go by what hope is there for a solution to the Syrian crisis without further atrocities taking place :-(

Putting my cynics hat on - getting involved in a conflict does allow the Western Powers to create a distraction from problems they have on their own soil ;-)

I agree with OFiTG :-)

OFITG is quite wrong most of these disputes go back centuries long before the brief century of European colonialism. That is especially true of Syria.

The main reason that the west does not make any intervention eg: Cruise missiles to rattle Assad's cage, no fly zone is because Russia has made its naval base at Tartus and the Alawite mini colony around Latakia "red line" issues. The USA and EU have bigger fish to fry i.e. Iran's nuclear weapon establishment.

Sorting this out will be a whole lot easier with Russian support or at least no veto. Using western air power to make mincemeat out of what is supposed to be an "advanced" SAM air defense system would just make Russia look silly and not help the US much at all either with Iran or the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

And so a downtrodden majority go on suffering at the hands of the Ba'athists so that an ever greater evil can be stopped.

All the same Assad has really pushed his luck and a repeat will for sure result in a limited attack probably by Cruise missiles as the US/UK have plenty in the area.

I am not aware of any aggression / suppression which has been sorted out by negotiation rather than force of arms but maybe OFITG can enlighten us.

During the 20 years of relative peace in the Middle East ( only one war, Lebanon ) I drove across Syria from Aleppo to Kuwait and was based for some while in Beirut. Aleppo was a really wonderful place with a large ancient souk full of all kinds of eastern merchandise and many of the old Turkish merchant houses and depots. It has been almost destroyed along with the multi ethnic society where everybody just got on.

It is a many sided tragedy which many saw coming, just like Yugoslavia, and nobody tried to stop.

Assad's regime will eventually collapse as its only serious source of money are the oil fields currently in opposition hands. He is being bank rolled by the Russians.

The chances of a happy united Syria in the next 20 years or so are nil. If it is lucky it will end up the same sort of fractured mess as Iraq. If it is not lucky it will end up like Lebanon in the 1980s dragging that country back into turmoil as well for good measure.

:-(

Rollo. Totally my understanding too. Hate to criticise views of OFG as they are always held so firmly.

Once Assad has gone, I do not share your view that it will be a horrible country for 20 years. Things can change very quickly. I just wish that the United Nations was more powerful than Russia, USA and China and could resolve these situations.

Here is a sad list of Arabic / Islamic countries and provinces which have had serious military interventions / civil war & turmoil over the last 50 years.

Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Kurdistan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, the Oman, the Lebanon, Bahrain, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya, Indonesia, Philippines (Mindinao). Sudan, Chad, Cameroons, Nigeria. Eritrea, Somalia.

In all of these every day life for the many is nasty, brutish and often short.
All of them are run by the army and secret police whatever fig leaf of democracy they may have so that even the rich dread the 3am knock at the door.

Why does John believe Syria will be an exception ?

Is John aware that Assad has form for this sort of thing?
Here is where a close friend ( a teacher ) found herself in 1982.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

Dreams are nice but they are just dreams.

Dermot - yes the US did use chemical warfare in Vietnam, and the third generation are still suffering, with birth defects, cancer etc.
I personally find it very imperialistic of the West to believe they should go in and 'sort out' everyone else's problems.
Vietnam is a good example, and the west hasn't done too well in Afghanistan either?
How would we have felt if Russia had come in (invaded?) during the IRA atrocities and, to sort it out, just blasted Ireland with drones and chemicals?

Rollo. I just think it is too simplistic to suggest it is any religion that causes these problems. Or that the inter-necine warring needs to go on and on.

There are problems like this in non-Muslim countries. It tends to be people who lust for power or cannot let go of power. And many of the population support them.

Britain and USA have always thought they had all the answers to Vanuatu, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Mindinao (remember that there are over 10m professing Christians in Philippines)

And what happens if Britain cannot control its own. We have to call in Mitchell from USA to try to sort it. And what if Canada cannot control Quebec? Or USA Alaska?

I just feel we need to realise people are at the root of all this. Everyone is an individual, every one has different thought processes. And every one has the same basic needs - which Maslow said were love, safety (edit - forgot food and warmth) and sex. White, black, yellow, green - we all want the same. And we all hopefully accept authority for good and bad and want them to lead us, rather than line their pockets and those of their familiies.

RolloTheRed - I agree with quite a lot of what you say and I know that the conflicts in many of these countries are historical and go back centuries to a time well before the West intervened.

The point I was trying to make, I admit that I maybe did not make it very well, is that the ideological one size democracy fits all that the West seems to have adopted in modern times, is not going to resolve the problems, if anything I think it has contributed to the problems.

"How would we have felt if Russia had come in (invaded?) during the IRA atrocities and, to sort it out, just blasted Ireland with drones and chemicals"...in answer to MaggieWinchester....

.........probably it would have united Ireland faster than any government or peace deal. -j

I really don't think the indiscriminate use of drones and chemicals on innocent civilians should ever be condoned irrespective of whether it hastens peace or not.

And we still do not have a united Ireland.

Just to confirm I too don't condone the hypothetical statement made by MW-j