General Chat

John, She allowed personal debt to spiral ? I would check that if I was you,

It was brown in the the blair years who promoted personal debt to spiral out of control because of the money that generated for the treasury

Roy

Errol. I judge Roberts only by that article from Paula. He was so similar to my own father in so many ways. I absolutely knew straight away the sort of man he was.

He would have tried to be a good citizen and a good leader in Grantham. He would have pushed his daughters to do well in life. Doing well would have meant achieving things, caring for others, not coveting anything. And his life would have been Holy Spirit and prayer led. So I feel as if I know him fairly well from Paula's contribution.

I would have said that the family was lower middle class - that was what I felt we were. They wanted to own things and move towards the middle class - which I saw in 1950's as Vicars, Solicitors, Teachers, Bank Managers and Company Directors. Mrs T jumped straight into the Upper Middle Classes when she married wealthy Denis Thatcher. And that would have caused a lot of problems in those days for her. But she was resilient and brave and excellent at detail and time management.

Errol. Please behave. I have not edited anything. And I never mentioned Cosely at all at any time - it was Merlin, not me.

There has been lots said and debated in the media about the death of Margaret Thatcher,

I find it very strange that we have not heard anything what so ever from her arch enemy Arthur Scargill

I think he is keeping a low profile because he doesn't want to answer any awkward questions resulting from the conflict in the 1980's

Roy
edit
Just googled and found this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22079887

Mr Pie


Maybe he's being 'tactful'

;-)

All political parties allow credit led consumer booms from time to time, usually for electoral reasons and then clamp down hard soon afterwards. This has been called "stop-go" politics.

The major exception was Atlee who completely disregarded the human wish for such things as a motor car or toys for the kids, a political mistake which put his side out for 13 years.

Under Heath the then Chancellor, Barber, had his own boom which got completely out of control disappearing into a collapsing currency and the 3 day week etc. This mess fell on Labour's lap.

After a flirtation with "monetarism" did not pan out very well, sending the £ sky high and laying waste a big chunk of the ludicrously inefficient UK industrial base, Mrs T ( whatever she may have claimed ) reverted to good 'ol Keynesiasm and Lawson created the 1980s boom which led to, yeah, another bust.

It is simply not true that the Tories clear up a Labour financial mess nor that Labour rectify Tory lack of investment etc. Nor is it true that taxes are lower under the Tories ( the tax take in 1989 was higher than in 1979) while public expenditure gets out of hand with Labour. Public expenditure rose every year but two under Thatcher while "the deficit" has increased remorselessly under the coalition.

The noughties housing boom was built on the Yen "carry trade" by which banks borrowed in Yen and lent in dollars and pounds without any counter party. The risk was exponentially increased by trading derivative debt. As Porkie Pie says the resulting tax yield was irresistible to Labour given the tax take. PP does not say though that the Tories never once criticized this and would for sure have done the same thing with the same results.

The truth is that the two main parties are as bad or as good as each other there is little to choose.

The real villain, the elephant in the room, is the educational system. It has proved good at providing bureaucrats, semi-skilled workers and neats but has been bloody useless at providing enough of the highly skilled technicians, engineers, software skills and so on that any serious renaissance of manufacturing for a supposedly top 10 economy demands. Without skilled immigration heaven knows where we would be. The root cause is a national antipathy to mathematics.

And so we will continue to depend on selling off the family silver ( eg Cadburys ), banking and media together with the magic mortgage ponzi racket.

The wise man though can make money by taking account of the principal thread of British economic policy - short termism. For instance those who piled in early to green energy have done well (many of them Dave's mates ). Too late now to come to the party. Any body heavily exposed to BTL will bail out if a Milliband win becomes probable. If enough BTL landlords bail out in 2014 it could well create another banking crash which is why the Tories are trying to push money into mortgage finance and building. Some people are going to be badly burned.

It might just be worth saying that France has similar problems, avoided Thatcher type reforms and is now teetering on the edge of a terrible crash which will make the PIGS problems small change.

Robert Burns has the best take on economics.

"Some hae meat and canna eat, And some wad eat that want it;
But we hae meat, and we can eat, And sae the Lord be thanket.''

"In the long run we are all dead" (James Maynard Keynes)

so where are we going to ?

"Through the corridors of sleep
Past the shadows dark and deep
My mind dances and leaps in confusion.
I don't know what is real,
I can't touch what I feel
And I hide behind the shield of my illusion.

So I'll continue to continue to pretend
My life will never end,
And flowers never bend
With the rainfall.

The mirror on my wall
Casts an image dark and small
But I'm not sure at all it's my reflection.
I am blinded by the light
Of God and truth and right
And I wander in the night without direction.

So I'll continue to continue to pretend
My life will never end,
And flowers never bend With the rainfall.

It's no matter if you're born
To play the King or pawn
For the line is thinly drawn 'tween joy and sorrow,
So my fantasy becomes reality,
And I must be what I must be and face tomorrow.

So I'll continue to continue to pretend
My life will never end,
And flowers never bend
With the rainfall."

There was something from him in the DM but as I can't stand the man I can't remember what it was. Suffice it to say it was not complementary to MT.

George Galloway said what Scargil would have said. Checked the 2,000 invited guests and both Galloway and Scargill appear to have declined their St Pauls invite. Apparently attending a funeral service with Lord and Lady Kinnock in South Wales. So at least 4 vacant seats. :-(

I'm amazed that Messrs Scargill and Galoway have been invited to St Pauls!! I would have thought that was extending the hand of friendship a hand too far, bearing in mind what both these 'gentlemen's (?!!!) opinion of Mrs T was/is. What a relief it must be that they have refused!
Hello Annn! Nice to see you here.

John as usual you have come out with utter codswallop

So you now admit you did not actually know them but you still feel free to state what you think they would be like?

incredible.

Now please let us talk about the Thatcher years which is what this thread is about - good and bad but without animosity
And thank you everybody else for keeping this thread sensible, sometimes jovial, sometimes serious, but mostly without argument

Mrs Gins, Arthur Scargill 'tactful'?

I doubt it

Rollo, good post 19:56 and yes the opersition "tories" never questioned the money tree "credit" and what affect it would have in the long term

Roy

Margaret T didnt grow up with the threads of her breeches thrashing her ass,

Whats not widley known is that the Roberts didnt live above the shop from her being aged 6/7 they lived in a 4 bed , 2 reception,breakfast and study with substantial gardens 3 story house.not above a pokey little shop.

Alf Roberts was also a postmaster,,,,,,the two shops were in different locations in the town,

Like all at that time,,,,,,people with money got places as money talked,
a Rotten Borough.

John posted some hours ago .............


"I stick by my assertion that Mr Roberts, Miss Margaret Roberts, Denis Thatcher and Mark Thatcher have never understood what a proper day's work is. And it was proper work that made Great Britain great up to about 1960. We were not the nation of shopkeepers that Napoleon claimed."


Although others have already responded to this, I have to say that I find it extremely offensive ............. as he is sayng that no-one who worked at anything other than coal mining, or even his "trade" of grocery stores has "worked".

He seems to be upset at what Mrs Thatcher and her family achieved.

She got a scholarship to Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School, and worked very hard there. Are you blaming her for being born with brains, and being clever enough to make to a Grammar School??


Then you are also blaming me for having brains and winning a scholarship to a Grammar School.

She then got a scholarship to Somerville College, Oxford, and made the best of her time there. Are you blaming her for that?

Then you are also blaming me for winning a Local Education Authority Grant to attend Liverpool University, and making the best of my years there.

"scholarship" and LEA Grants, in those days, meant that your tuition and at least a portion of your "living expenses" was paid for you.

In my case, I got the full grant, which paid tuition expenses, living expenses, most of my books, AND a supplemental grant for field trips ................... because my father was so poor, and the Grant was means-tested. Like many others, I had about 5s a week "spending money .............. for lunches, entertainment, clothes, etc.

My OH also got a full Education Authority Grant .............. his father owned a shop, so could have been called "middle class", but his means test showed that the costs of owning and running the shop plus supporting a younger child put him into the same category as my father. OH had that Grant for his undergraduate degree, then won a fully paid scholarship to do a PhD. Would you blame him for making the best of his brains???


Are you blaming her for then not going down the mines, or other physically demanding work??

Then you are also blaming me (and my OH), for not doing such work.

Regardless of the fact that WOMEN were not allowed to do that kind of work, or any similar.

She became a Research Scientist. I became a Teacher .................. are you blaming us??


Do you realise how hard a teacher works???

I would literally spend at least the first 3 days of a school holiday sleeping for most of the day. In the summer vac, I would sleep for a week. That was how tiring it was.

During term time, I would work (along with all my colleagues) from 9 am to 4 pm at school, and from 6 pm to 9 or 10 pm at home 5 days a week. We would then often also work 5 or 6 hours a day on both Saturdays and Sundays.

It was very rare that we could take off a full day over a weekend.


Do you realise how hard it is to do research science??? I've lived for over 45 years with someone who does just that. It is NOT an easy sinecure by any means.



Please think about what you are saying .................. and how much you are insulting, and hurting, other people with your false statements

I love this thread, it's good ...a few blips ..but there you go !

Kay ???? ,my thoughts of Mrs T humble begins (quoted in the press) lead me question it.
I wouldn't call Mrs T owning dad owning 2 shops coming from humble beginnings, would you ?

My paternal nan (born1891) was the postmistress in the village we lived and she was thought of as stuck up, she'd bought 2 properties next to each other. One she lived in with her dau and family, the other she gave to my dad.
Yeah she worked hard and played hard, not a lot of peeps liked her cos of her manner. She was fine with us but quite a demanding lady !
My maternal aunt (now 93 lived in the same village from birth) recalls how she was, very forthright , take it or leave it type of person .Yeph I'll go with that !!

I've traced back on both sides of the family they moved to the village for working prospects , paternal gt grandfather (born 1859) worked on the Severn tunnel ,they then began tunnelling for the railways in this area and they moved here.
He made enough money to buy property. Gramps too bought a large property in the village,which most of his family with their children lived in in flats and some of it was let as flats to others.

I think we were fortunate dad didn't pay rent to nan (he was willed the house when nan died) he worked as a Postmaster too.
Mum worked as a shop assistant before she had sis and I.
Worked part time when we in school..in a gov dept.

Hubby's mum was widowed with 2 very young children at the age of 21,(1953) she was fortunate to be able to live with her parents,who lived in rented accommodation she had to work ,and times were very tough for her.
In fact having 2 young boys she was reliant on her parents help to clothe them ,tho she was working.

I only quote these as to question how humble up bringing is being defined.

Cos I don't think of mine as being humble, I feel I was fortunate ...hubby's yes maybe.


I don't know Grantham ...but your dad having 2 shops there and living elsewhere ,being a postmaster too , as said by Kay (it is not widely known)
I hardly thing of it as being a humble beginning for Mrs T !!

I don't question what she went on to achieve , but humble background....no.

to be fair,whoever was PM in your era done some sort of damage,they all promise but never deliver , Margaret Thatcher did some great things(BANNING SCHOOL MILK WAS ONE OF THEM) but she got things wrong ,like them before her,and more importantly those after her,
but she was the first woman PM and what a woman :-D

Not my intention to upset anyone, Sylvia. I have taught and been a shopkeeper myself.

What I was trying to say (probably very poorly) is that Mrs Thatcher and the political class never understood these industrial areas. They understood white collar jobs but not blue collars.

They saw the people in my valleys voting Labour every time, so no real reason for them to work with the people and the communities. They could not understand that union power was often based on the same sort of voting system that gave her power.

They hardly ever visited working communities. Neither did the civil servants. And the police were always automatically supported in these battles like Orgreave as if they never put a foot wrong. People do feel abandoned by her - even all these years later.

remember liverpool voting labour and getting HATTON.

enough said :-(

Her application to Oxford was turned down,,,,,,,,,she didnt have enough qualifications,!

The Grammer school 6th form where she took chemistry as a subject only had 6 pupils in the class at that time.!

''In her upper sixth year she applied for a scholarship to study chemistry at Somerville College, Oxford, but she was initially rejected and was offered a place only after another candidate withdrew''

Sorry but in my book even that's pretty damn good!!

she may not have come from a strictly "humble" background ....................


but what she achieved, right up until she married Denis Thatcher, she achieved on her own rights.

I'm willing to bet, knowing of the education system at the time, that her father would not have been paying too much for her education ....... winning "scholarships" to the High School and to Somerville is the key wording.


Her father had to have been willing for her to stay on for the grammar school education, of course, and to forego whatever amount she might have been able to earn between the ages of 14 and 18 ...................... school leaving age at the time was 14 (1918 - 1947).

My own brother was born in 1929 .................. he had to leave school at 14, and find work. He had not won a scholarship to the Grammar School, which would have allowed him to have schooling until 16 ............ IF my father had been able to pay fro it! That would probably have happened, as my father was in well-paid work during the war, and had more money yo spare than at any other time of his life. Like so many "Victorians", my parents believed in education ..... even if it was self-education after leaving school and starting work.



I find it rather strange that so many people are condemning the published comments that MT came form "humble background" .............. saying that there is no basis for that,


but there is no evidence as to what her father's wealth, or not, was


Both statements are being made without any knowledge of the true facts.



It IS a fact that she came from "humble circumstances" compared with the backgrounds of almost all Tory leaders before, and after, her!

Most of the men were from upper middle class backgrounds at the very least, and usually from the upper classes of society.

Am enjoying the fact that I am learning so much about Mrs T - eg: when Kay wrote that MrsT had her applicatication for Oxford turned down went to check as I thought she HAD gone to Oxford. She was accepted when one candidate withdrew - wish I had the brains to be just one place away from studying at Oxford :-)