General Chat

One thing I always feel ....................

Much of the Bible is based on stories told down the years by the village story tellers ................................

This is not to detract from them OR the Bible,

........... but story tellers would have simplified AND / OR embellished the stories they told of Jesus and the wondrous things he did ......................... just to make it more interesting to their listeners. Thus the shepherds, the Magi, etc


One has only to think of the party game Chinese Whispers to see how stories could begin to differ.


As a scientist, I think there is no doubt that Jesus was not born in 0 BC ............... that would have become a suitable starting point for the story tellers.

But was it 4 BC, 10 BC, or what?


I note that what I learnt as BC = Before Christ and AD = Anno Domini (or After Christ) are terms that are no longer used.

IOne now has to use BCE for Before the Common/Current/Christian Era (an alternative to Before Christ, abbreviated BC), and Common Era (also Current Era or Christian Era), abbreviated as CE, instead of Anno Domini (abbreviated AD).



TBH ................. I find it extremely difficult to believe the Bible.

My scientific mind just cannot accept many of the things said in there ............. for example, that the earth was built in 7 days.


What I CAN do is believe that the story tellers used the word "day" because there listeners (usually completely uneducated) understood what a day was. They would have had no conception of what 100 years was, let alone 1 million years. Not that the story tellers would have had much more comprehension of that sort of time scale!

I apply the same sort of suspension of my training to understand other parts of the Bible, but I cannot believe what is there as being literally true!

Good morning everyone :-)


My word, it took a while to get on here today.....but I think a lot of people are having trouble accessing GR at the moment.


Thank you for your thoughts Sylvia. I do understand what you are saying and completely understand your thoughts and doubts.

Unlike you, I certainly do not have a scientific background - maybe that makes things easier for me but I know that there are many Christians within the scientific world. I don't pretend for one minute that I understand scientific issues, but I am very grateful and, indeed, often awestruck by what is achieved by those clever people.

I tend to go along with the old saying.....Christianity is caught....not taught :-)


A light hearted moment for today :


There's something in a simple hug
that always warms the heart.
It welcomes us back home
and makes it easier to part.

A hugs the way to share the joy
and sad times we go through,
Or just a way for friends to say
they like you ‘cuz you're you!

Hugs are meant for anyone
for whom we really care . . .
From your grandma to your neighbor,
or a cuddly teddy bear.

A hug is an amazing thing . . .
it's just the perfect way
To show the love we're feeling
but can't find the words to say.

It's funny how a little hug
makes everyone feel good;
In every place and language,
it's always understood.

And hugs don't need equipment,
special batteries, or parts . . .
Just open up your arms . . .
and open up your hearts!

~ Jill Wolf ~

Love to you all :-)

Sylvia

I think what you have written is very honest and very thought-provoking. I have often thought that "harder for a rich man etc than pass through the eye of a needle" referred to those with riches of intelligence rather than wealth.

And these stories are for people with simple childlike minds who can throw away all their cynicism and doubt and truly believe that it MAY all be true.

I am not sure if Saul of Tarsus, Nicodemus (Jewish leader in 1st century and a briliant academic), Gamaliel (teacher of Saul) or Joseph of Arimathea (possibly richest man in Israel in those days) believed the Torah in its entirety. I find it is a slippery slope when we decide such and such could not possibly be true in the Bible, because many of the truths hang together with other passages that seem very fanciful.

Science was already quite well developed 2,000 years ago when Saul and Nicodemus lived and, even if their religion was not challenged much by Jews (and I doubt that), it would certainly have been challenged by the Romans who settled as an invasion force and the Greeks that they later tried to integrate into the infant Christian church.

I have to admit I am not a scientist (although I possess a BSc in the precise science of economics). I would have argued for Dawkins, Bertrand Russell and Charles Darwin for most of my life - until 30 years ago when I suddenly "saw the light of salvation". An assured future of bliss with Jesus when I finally shed my crumbling and ageing shell in this present life and take on a new and perfect body and mind for eternity.

And I really find it difficult to explain why I now see Dawkins et alia as false prophets, leading people away from the truth I have found. And many others have found.

And simple fishermen and carpenters, and retired miners and charladies in my own congregations now have my main attention. They seem much wiser to me than the wisest scientists - much as I admire the contribution of so many very clever and educated people to our lives and happiness.

Many thought provoking postings, all very special too.

I like "simple". My brain-fog days don't allow me to think too deeply just now. but I have to say the thread is really interesting and my thanks to you all.

Day 10 of Advent calendar is:-

Mary brought forth her first born son and laid him in a manger. Luke 2:7

The Jill Wolf words are "simple", I like it, so thanks Cynthia, and I'm sending out
hugs to everyone right now.

another thought provoking "opinion" of mine for you ................


We have a friend who is an extremely intelligent man, an evolutionary biologist and a very good field botanist (meaning he can actually identify plants growing wild :-) ) ............ he is also a fervent Baptist who deeply believes in the Bible. He has managed to reconcile his religious beliefs with his scientific training.

He has spent a lot of time in the Holy Land doing botanical work, and became interested in visiting all the sites mentioned in the Bible.

He is now in the process of writing a book .........

......... the "sites" that tourists and religious alike are taken to in the Holy Land are NOT actually the sites as mentioned in the Bible!

He has spent years working on this ................... one site at a time.

He goes to a site declared to be the one mentioned in the Bible, stands there with his Bible, and looks around.


In most cases, he then finds that he cannot see what the Bible says he should see ................... and I'm talking in terms of mountains, sea, or other physical geographical features that should still be there even after 1000 or more years.

HOWEVER, he has, in most cases, been able to find the real actual site ........................ often on the next mountain over, or 5 miles away! :-)


In other words ...............

.............. places have been "misplaced" over the 2000 years since Jesus or the disciples last visited them. Most likely, this is due to the oral tradition that prevailed for so long.

Good morning everyone.... :-)


kandj, thank you for your Advent calendar quotations - they are so apt for the season.


Sylvia, your friend sounds as though he is quite a fundamentalist but he is so fortunate to have been able to visit such special places.

It's not really surprising that areas are not as exact as they are in the bible though - many things will have altered due to landscape and climate change. As you also say, the oral translation will have had an effect too, as scholars have had to translate both from the Hebrew and the Greek language. Much can be lost in translation :-)

I have many friends who have visited the Holy Land and, whilst they have all been aware of the 'tourist traps', ie THIS is the place.....it was HERE such and such happened, they have all come away with a profound sense of awe at what they have experienced.


Last night I had been asked to read at a Carol Service. It always seems too early for carol services to me as we are still only part way through Advent. This is what I chose to read:

There are 'down days' in December -
We don't like to admit it, but there are.
Days when we're tired from extra jobs and cooking;
Days when the strain of social events and meetings
Takes its toll, however much we enjoy doing it all.

Can these 'down days' in December
Serve to help us along our Advent road?
Perhaps they can, if we consider Mary and Joseph -
Was it easy for Mary to cope with the stigma
Of being pregnant, her story too good to be true?

What of Joseph and HIS dilemma?
Should he abandon his betrothed or stand by her?
Before his vision, surely doubt and depression
Dogged his days when the future seemed so uncertain?
Yes, the Advent road was hardly a romantic affair!

Thank you Lord for December blues!
I don't like them, but you can use them!
Days when I need to spend more time with you;
Days when I need to put my trembling hand in yours.
I do trust you Lord, but keep me looking forward to your light!



Take care. Cx :-)

Quite powerful words, Cynthia. I can hear mutterings off from here. But we have to remind that it was not all fun and gaiety on that first Noel. Like real life, we see the happiness through the strains and the tears.

I should imagine any visit to the Holy Land is amazing. I just love to google earth sometimes and seed what it was like for people to trek out to see John the Baptist in the wilderness. Or Saul the rabbi marching from Jerusalem to Damascus to nip Christianity in the bud. And I am lookinhg forward to your friend's book, Sylvia. Anything that is written scientifically from a contrite heart is fascinating to me. Too many proud and conceited hearts in this world.

I also love these verses that we get from kandj.

Can I add an Old Testament text from Zephaniah:

Sing, Daughter Zion;
shout aloud, Israel!
Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
Daughter Jerusalem!
The Lord has taken away your punishment,
he has turned back your enemy.
The Lord, the King of Israel, is with you;
never again will you fear any harm.
On that day
they will say to Jerusalem,
“Do not fear, Zion;
do not let your hands hang limp.
The Lord your God is with you,
the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
but will rejoice over you with singing.”

“I will remove from you
all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals,
which is a burden and reproach for you.
At that time I will deal
with all who oppressed you.
I will rescue the lame;
I will gather the exiles.
I will give them praise and honor
in every land where they have suffered shame.

At that time I will gather you;
at that time I will bring you home.
I will give you honor and praise
among all the peoples of the earth
when I restore your fortunes[e]
before your very eyes,”
says the Lord.

Sylvia, your friend is blessed to be able to travel to such special places and be given the brain to think things through..... a double blessing for him indeed, and for you also as he shares his scientific thoughts with you. Thank you for passing them on to us too

Cynthia, I also feel that Advent isn't always given the importance it deserves. Attention is focused on Christmas but for the wrong reasons, too much hype and commercialism and pressure imho.
During Advent we remember Mary and Joseph and give thanks for their faithfulness, courage and obedience, stepping out into the unknown in the strength of the Spirit.

John, I am pleased that you enjoy reading the scripture from my Advent calendar as I really am happy to share the bible words with all who read this thread.
Day 11 from my Advent calendar:-

There were shepherds in the field keeping watch over their flock. Luke 2: 8

I am off to church shortly to help make up Christingle oranges for the village school children. We have a new Lady Rector who has invited the schools to come into church and share some of the wonder that is found inside this beautiful building.
There are to be 4 Christingle services and Jan has requested 600 Christingle oranges!!! I hope we will have a few volunteers, but I suspect that it will be the faithful few as always, so it could take many hours but we will enjoy happy fellowship

Sylvia I just wanted to say that I find your posts
very interesting and more so the last one on your
friend who travels all over.

Cynthia thank you as always for your post and kandj
for sharing the readings from your Advent Calendar.
John not forgetting yourself and your many takes on
verses from the Bible.

Emma :-)

Good morning everyone. :-)

I hope you had a good time making all those Christingles kandj. I agree that it isn't just about the doing of these jobs, in the friendship which goes with it. :-)

Last night, there were plenty of people helping to decorate our church ready for Christmas. I went along to help but, as I am not very artistically gifted, it was better that I helped to make everyone a drink....... :-)

Our late Vicar absolutely loved Christmas and the church always looks so very festive. Hopefully, it will look just as good this time, but there will be an understandable tinge of sadness about things.


I found this interesting thought for today:


The paradox of our age.

The paradox of our time in history, is that ...
We have taller buildings ... but shorter tempers;
Wider freeways ... but narrower viewpoints.
We spend more ... but have less;
We buy more ... but enjoy it less.
We have bigger houses ... but smaller families;
More conveniences ... but less time;

We have more degrees ... but less sense;
More knowledge ... but less judgment;
More experts ... but more problems;
More medicine ... but less wellness.

We drink too much,
Smoke too much,
Spend too recklessly,
Laugh too little,
Drive too fast,
Get angry too quickly,
Stay up too late,
Get up too tired,
Read too seldom,
Watch TV too much,
And pray too seldom.

We have multiplied our possessions ...
But reduced our values.
We talk too much, love too seldom ...
And hate too often.

We've learned how to make a living ...
But not a life.
We've added years to life ...
But not life to years.

We've been all the way to the moon and back ...
But have trouble crossing the street
To meet the new neighbor.

We've conquered outer space ...
But not inner space.
We've done larger things ...
But not better things.

We've cleaned up the air ...
But polluted the soul.
We've split the atom ...
But not our prejudice.

We write more ...
But learn less.
We plan more ...
But accomplish less.
We've learned to rush ...
But not to wait.

We have higher incomes ...
But lower morals.
We have more food ... but less appeasement;
More acquaintances ... but fewer friends;
More effort ... but less success.

We build more computers to hold more information,
To produce more copies than ever ...
But have less communication.
We've become long on quantity ...
But short on quality.

These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion;
Tall men, and short character;
Steep profits, and shallow relationships.

These are the times of world peace ...
But domestic warfare.
More leisure ... and less fun;
More kinds of food ... but less nutrition.
These are days of two incomes ... but more divorce;
Of fancier houses ... but broken homes.

These are days of quick trips,
Disposable diapers,
Throwaway morality,
One-night stands,
Overweight bodies,
And pills that do everything ...
From cheer ...
To quiet ...
To kill.

It is a time when there is much in the show window ...
And nothing in the stockroom.

Indeed it's all true.

Think about it ... read this again.

~ Dr. Bob Moorehead ~


Food for thought indeed. Enjoy your day.....Cx :-)

Emma

thank you very much!


As a little interest ..........

............ R, our friend, is currently on leave in a South American country.

The city where he and his wife are based was in uproar last week ................ and they were confined to their apartment for 2 days as the police went on strike for more pay!

The city settled ................. giving the police more than 50% pay increase.


He always seems to get involved in situations like this wherever he goes.


He has many stories regarding the problems of the Middle East, and moving around the Holy Land when different countries now occupy those lands ...........

................ even his work as a botanist is affected because plants don't just stop because humans have decreed that there is an impassable border "here"

Sylvia your friend certainly leads a very interesting
life.
Memories and stories he has lived through with his work
and knowledge learnt through travel.
Thank you once again and feel there is a book in the making
at some point along the way.

Emma :-)

A little late today, so apologies to all.

Day 12 of my Advent Calendar

The angel said to them, "I bring you tidings of great joy." Luke 2. 10

Good morning everyone...... :-)

Just a short verse for this morning......I hope you are all well.




The Legend of the Angel Feather

I am an angel feather,
Sent from God above,
To serve as a reminder
Of His most gracious love.

I'm from your guardian angel
That God assigned to you,
I fell out in the struggle
As your angel guarded you.


Each time you almost stumble,
Each time you nearly fall,
Thank God and all His angels
For answering your call.

~ Francis J. Wilson ~


Take care.......Cx :-)

Thanks once more Cynthia. Your words are wonderful each day.

Day 13 of the Advent Calendar

Unto you is born a Saviour which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2: 11

Hoping to go this afternoon to help out at the schools Christingle service. All exciting for the little ones and a blessing for adults to see the church full and have the Christmas story told inside this beautiful old church. Our new Rector is a joy to be around..... so spiritual and genuine and very kind to all who meet up with her.

Lovely words from Cynthia - shall think of that angel feather as I perambulate today.

And am loving these verses of kandj - many thanks.

And my contribution is a lovely verse from the Old Testament:

Isaiah 11:1-2: The Genealogy of Jesus Beginning with King David, the Son of Jesse

"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord"

And the fuller genealogy (the direct line from Jesse and King David to the legal father of Jesus, Joseph, can be found in Matthew Chapter 1. 42 generations from the psalmist David to Jesus, I think. :-) And a virtual mathematical certainty that everyone today in every part of the world shares blood with Jesus in a biological sense as well as a possible spiritual sense. Even if you cannot believe Jesus had several half brothers and sisters who married and gave him nephews and nieces, you will suspect that he had many other close relatives who, in turn, had descent.

Good morning everyone :-)

I do hope kandj lets us know how the Christingle service went..... :-)


Each day as I browse through prayers, poems and hymns, I do hope I manage to find things which have an appeal to most of you. I try to vary it so that different topics and tastes are covered, with not too much of any one thing or a particular bias. If anyone would like a particular 'type' of prayer on a more regular basis, please say so and I will do my best to find something.

At this season of giving, when we not only give presents to one another, but remember the greatest gift of all in Jesus Christ, I found this little article which makes interesting reading.


From the Jewish philosopher, Maimonides 12th century

There are eight degrees or steps in the duty of charity. The first and lowest degree is to give, but with reluctance or regret. This is the gift of the hand, but not of the heart.

The second is, to give cheerfully, but not proportionately to the distress of the sufferer.

The third is, to give cheerfully and proportionately, but not until solicited.

The fourth is, to give cheerfully, proportionately, and even unsolicited; but to put it in the poor man’s hand, thereby exciting in him the painful emotion of shame.

The fifth is, to give charity in such a way that the distressed may receive the bounty, and know their benefactor, without their being known to him. Such was the conduct of some of our ancestors, who used to tie up money in the corners of their cloaks, so that the poor might take it unperceived.

The sixth, which rises still higher is to know the objects of our bounty, but remain unknown to them. Such was the conduct of those of our ancestors, who used to convey their charitable gifts into poor people’s dwellings; taking care that their own persons and names should remain unknown.

The seventh is still more meritorious, namely to bestow charity in such a way that the benefactor many not know the relieved persons, nor they the name of their benefactors, as was done by our charitable forefathers during the existence of the Temple. For there was in that holy building a place called the Chamber of the Silent, wherein the good deposited secretly whatever their generous hearts suggested, and from which the poor were maintained with equal secrecy.

Lastly, the eighth, and the most meritorious of all, is to anticipate charity, by preventing poverty; namely, to assist the reduced fellowman, either by a considerable gift, or a loan of money, or by teaching him a trade, or by putting him in the way of business, so that he may earn an honest livelihood; and not be forced to the dreadful alternative of holding out his hand for charity.

To this Scripture alludes when it says: and if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee, then thou shalt relieve him; yea, though he be a stranger or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. This is the highest step and the summit of charity’s golden ladder.

by Bill Kammerer


Profound words for the present giving season...........Cx :-)

Oh! I so disagree with Maimonides, Cynthia. I would like to agree with his steps of charity, but I fear it is a very worldly, and a very narrow and contorted view of charity.

There are several words for "love" in Greek. The two important ones are philia (conditional love) and agape (unconditional love).

Now the word "charity" in our Bibles (Faith, hope and charity - but chief of these is charity) is the translation given of the word agape.

The modern term charity has wandered somewhat away, as its Nicey and Smashy doing lots of things for "cherity". That was always done with the thought of getting something back, either more work for them, or more publicity or simply a better internal feeling that "I have done my bit"

Agape is something very special and I am not sure I can think of a perfect example in humanity. I guess people like Mother Theresa and many nuns and monks have a high degree. Sometimes the "Secret Millionaire" comes close to showing good examples. It is something that Jesus had for us - total unselfish love, something all Christians try to aspire to in return. However bad the other person is, we have to try and learn to love them without reservation. It is a simple order from Jesus: "Love thy enemy in the same way you want God to love you".

Money and alms and gradations of giving do not come into it at all, in my view. Maimonides just shows he has no idea what unselfish love (agape) is all about. It is a about repentance and faith and certain hope for things unseen. It is NOT about works - lest anyone should boast. Charity is the widow's mite, it is a shy smile at someone, it is a kind word in place. More than anything it is praying for needs of others before we pray for our needs. God will hear our cries and deliver what charity (true love) is required for each of his beloved children.

Good and interesting topics, very thought provoking at this time of year, so my thanks to Cynthia and John today.

I went to do the meet and greet at church yesterday for the village class of very young school children and it a privilege to be there. Rev Jan is a natural with little ones and she involved them all every step of the way and held their attention throughout, which was a little miracle in itself.

Only the teachers and adult relatives who had come to share in this special Christingle were allowed to have the candles lighted and so the church was put in darkness and in the glow of the Christingle candlelight, the children sang
Silent Night, Holy Night, quite an emotional moment witnessing their innocence.

In the morning Rev Jan had attended this schools Nativity play and had asked the Head if the children might come to church wearing these clothes and so this is how our Rector told the Christmas story by having the little ones forward as each one's special role was explained, along with the significance of Christingle orange.

We had the donkey, Mary, Joseph,the Inn Keeper, shepherds, sheep, the Angel, the wise men with gifts and of course a baby Jesus. We helpers, hadn't expected this and we were all full of joy ourselves to hear the magical Christmas story told to us so simply. I have said in previous posts that I like simple........ and it doesn't get much simpler than this!!

With so many excited children in church the atmosphere was buzzing. I spoke to the Head as she was leaving and we both shared our joy of having little ones back into church again. She said that she will be back! I'm sure that she will and it will be a pleasure to have a full church once again as the new Rector unites the church and the villagers at this very special time of year.

Day 14 of my Advent Calendar:

You will find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes lying in a manger. Luke 2: 12

kandj, the Christingle sounds enchanting and must have been so very moving to watch. Your new Rector sounds as though she is going to be an absolute blessing to your church - I do hope so. :-)


John, I totally understand what you are saying but, I felt it had some very valid points with how people relate to 'charity' in the form of giving - especially with so many charity appeals which are going on at the moment.

I found the different attitudes towards giving - in the form of finance - to be spot on and took me back to the thoughts on Christian Stewardship.