General Chat

"Janey,
Strangely enough, whilst having tea with king Faisel we were CHATTING, not particularly discussing the problems of the world - his or mine."

Maggie, strangely enough, there really is a very simple answer to my question.

Faisel never tried to ban the burqa, or any other form of dress, in Saudi Arabia.

Some people want to ban the burqa in the UK. That's the subject of discussion here.

So Faisel's thoughts, or the lovely get-up you were in when you went to have tea with him, or any other way you can think of working your intimate friendship with the dear man into this conversation, are of no relevance whatsoever.

The subject is the effort to ban the burqa in the UK. Do feel free to address it.


Oh, and don't forget to mention my nationality.

Why, otherwise, someone might mistake me for someone with something worthwhile to say!

About as transparent as that lovely top you wore to tea with the king.

LOL Eldrick - they wore platforms & hot pants under them when I was out there - and most young men wore hairgrips - to hold their head dress in place over their (illegal) sideburns!!!

Janey,
Strangely enough, whilst having tea with king Faisel we were CHATTING, not particularly discussing the problems of the world - his or mine.

It never crossed my mind that one day, many years later, a Canadian woman would attempt to cross examine me and study the semantics of a bit of friendly banter.

I bet you're real fun at a party!! LOL

I think Burkas are rather fetching actually. Combined with a turban and stillettos, of course.

"(for Janeys benefit - it was illegal for women to walk dogs because, apparently, according to the censored papers received out there ie half a 'Sun' LOL western women did disgusting things with dogs - but that'll be okay as it's part of their culture surely?)"

Are you asking me some kind of question?

If you have a question to ask me, why don't you try doing it?

I know why.

Because it is so much more fun to make up trash and act like it came out of my mouth.

And hey, maybe somebody will believe it did.

What a waste of tme.

HI Kay,
Interesting that the majority of the boys (and many of the girls) in the vast Royal family of Saudi Arabia were educated in Britain isn't it? LOL

What was Faisel 2 like?
Faisel 1 found it hilarious when I infomed him that the dog got more respect than me. When he asked me why - I had to tell him!!

Parents & I went to a party . My parents (for some unknown reason) went home and left me!! I got a little 'squiffy' - yes you can get alcohol in 'dry' countries - and a (male) friend walked me home.
Then came the problem - parents had locked the gate - walls were 12 ft high - dog (who wasn't too keen on intruders) was loose.
I decided the dog had known the friend longer than he'd known me - so he had to climb the wall.
Fortunately the dog decided he smelt 'right' and let him over the wall - unlike some poor arab who'd tried to climb over, and ended up with a sore foot.

Then I decided to break another 'rule' and - with friend in tow -walked the dog!
(for Janeys benefit - it was illegal for women to walk dogs because, apparently, according to the censored papers received out there ie half a 'Sun' LOL western women did disgusting things with dogs - but that'll be okay as it's part of their culture surely?)

Anyhoo - It was 4am, but there were people about.
I had the dog on a long rope, which I loosened if any (male) came near me.
Most people in the neighbourhood knew he was Faisel's prime Saluki sire - and were terrified of him!
(My dad chose the dog as a very young pup, and when put in the weaning pen, he had killed all the other male pups - hence our visit to King Faisel - to let the dog 'do his business' with the bitches!) Dad wanted him castrated, but had agreed with Faisel that he'd wait until the dog was 3.

I think this reputation, and the fact that if any workmen came to the house, who went to get anything from their van, couldn't get back in past the open gate without one of us saying 'okay' to the dog - well they could - but not very far before they had a dog clinging onto their buttocks!!

He was, in reality, a big lazy softy who adored young children.

"This thread is getting rather unpleasant"

Yeah, Liz, I know I've always found bigotry unpleasant. Ever since before I learned in Sunday School that it was a bad thing.

I find it unpleasant when anybody tries to make anyone else do something for no reason but their own belief in their own superiority and the other's inferiority.

"To see someone die, possibly leaving young children, just because the bible says something along the lines of "take no man's blood" - which means do not stab someone and make them bleed. Blood transfusions were not even thought of in those times."

And? What? You think that competent adults should be tied down and tubes shoved in their arms that they don't want?

Lots of children are left parentless for lots of reasons. Let's ban everything that could leave a child parentless. Driving, for starters, I guess.


I, an atheist, would never be so utterly presumptuous as to tell someone what their religion really says. I have yet to figure out why a religious person would do that to another religious person. "Hey, you -- my interpretation of your religion is better than yours! You are obviously a stupid person. So now I may force you to do things you believe will harm your eternal soul." Yeesh.


"Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I think common sense should prevail"

Ah yes. Common sense. My way or the highway. If you don't like it, you have no sense, and so now we may force you to do what we want.


Myself, I think respect is the first thing that should prevail.

Maggie, please. Please reply to what I said, and not what you wish I had said.

"Faisel DID make an attempt to allow women to not wear the burqa"

My question was not whether he attempted to ALLOW WOMEN TO NOT WEAR the burqa. (I use capitals in an effort at clarity.)

My question was whether he attempted to BAN WOMEN FROM WEARING the burqa.

That is the relevant issues here.

There are those in the UK who want to BAN WOMEN FROM WEARING the burqa. Not ALLOW WOMEN TO NOT WEAR the burqa.


"Oh - and when I met him I was wearing jeans and a very thin muslin top.
You can doubt and suspect what he really wanted all you like - it still doesn't change the fact that he was educated in britain and loved the place and all it's freedoms and wished his own people had half as much freedom."

Bully for you, and bully for him.

If only ou were actually resopnding to something I said, instead of making up trash and pretending I said it.


"As for quoting the strictures of other religions - has anyone suggested islam woman should cast off all their modesty? I don't think so."

And did I say someone had? So your point is?

My point was that MANY RELIGIONS have rules about women's so-called modesty.

And what I am wondering is why nobody is jumping all over those religions and the people who practise them, and demanding that these demeaning beliefs be squelched and these coerced practices stop.


A lot of people need to make up their mind what their argument is.


Is the notion that someone wearing a burqa might blow up a train station the real reason for the effort to ban it?

Then why not ban backpacks? If the concern is for public safety, that is what we need to do. We might look like authoritarians, and idiots to boot, but at least we wouldn't look like hypocrites.


Is a deep concern for women's equality what lies behind calls to ban the burqa?

Then why not ban the high heels that hobble and cripple women, and the entertainment programming that degrades and demeans women, and the advertising that exploits women, in our own societies? If we are REALLY concerned about women's equality, that's what we will do. We might be acting like dictators, but at least we wouldn't be hypocrites.


"The strictures of these ther religions all have one thing in common - the face is visible."

Actually, there are a gazillion more things they do NOT have in common. How about we focus on them? If someone wants to cover her face, it's her choice.

Or are we talking about terrorism now ......?

How am I supposed to tell what any of you all are talking about at any given instant?

It's terrorism / It's equality / It's terrorism / It's equality ...

I keep feeling like I've got trapped in a scene from Chinatown and can't get out.


"No-one has said the Hijab should be banned - it's the burqa, which hides the face.
Many women in moslem countries wear the hijab and not the burqa.
A lot wear western clothes too!"

Maggie, show me an ounce of respect, please.

Actually, a lot of peole do say the hijab should be banned. I didn't say anything about it. I said that MANY RELIGIONS place constraints on the dress of women. I am saying that if YOU or anyone else wants to distinguish the burqa from any other imposed dress requirement, someone needs to do that. Simply saying "the face is visible" doesn't cut it. I could distinguish between Orthodox Jewish constraints and Old Order Mennonite constraints by saying "the hair is visible" in the latter case. The distinction is meaningless unless I demonstrate something that makes it meaningful.

I am perfectly aware of what women in various predominantly Muslim countries -- and Muslim women in other countries -- wear. I have been well acquainted with Muslim (would you misspell Christian and omit the capital?) women from Somalia, Iran, Iraq and Lebanon, for starters, of more than one sect.

The burqa disgusts me. So do five-inch heels and inch-long painted fingernails and Playboy magazine and loads of other things that contribute to the relegation of women to inferior status. But I am not trying to ban any of them.

If I want to ban some practice, I feel a responsibility to come up with a coherent argument for my position.


This equality / terrorism / equality / terrorism dance, it's called "moving the goalposts". If I try to counter an argument based on "terrorism" and the comeback is about how women are being treated unequally, or vice versa, I'm just having my time wasted.

This thread is getting rather unpleasant - we are all entitled to our opinions. Certain laws, ie crash helmets, are for the riders safety, not to be a drain on the NHS when emergency and lengthy treatment is required.
To see someone die, possibly leaving young children, just because the bible says something along the lines of "take no man's blood" - which means do not stab someone and make them bleed. Blood transfusions were not even thought of in those times. People who will not have blood given to them, will have an operation, which puts a strain on the staff, knowing the possible risks of blood loss.
Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I think common sense should prevail,
Liz

Liz 47 - PLEASE reply on thread, not by message
wait for me coming with you lol

Oh Maggie,,,,,,,,I met King Faisel 2..the son while he was in Brittian,,,,,,he was in the RAF.!

here we have barred the wearing of helmets while in banks/shops/post offices etc,,,also the wearing of skimasks,,,reasons being they fully cover the face. why is a veil so very diffrent,they arent worn for any other reason than beinging oppressed by outdated laws that dont apply in Gt B..,,,,,,there is no religious reason to do so.but if they want to go about dressed in them its their choice,,,,,,,as weired as it seems to us,but if the helmet wearers start screaming then you cant blame them.....whats good for the goose.....

Faisel DID make an attempt to allow women to not wear the burqa - and tried for many other changes for women and society - part of the reason he was assasinated in 1974!
Oh - and when I met him I was wearing jeans and a very thin muslin top.
You can doubt and suspect what he really wanted all you like - it still doesn't change the fact that he was educated in britain and loved the place and all it's freedoms and wished his own people had half as much freedom.

As for quoting the strictures of other religions - has anyone suggested islam woman should cast off all their modesty? I don't think so.
The strictures of these ther religions all have one thing in common - the face is visible.
No-one has said the Hijab should be banned - it's the burqa, which hides the face.
Many women in moslem countries wear the hijab and not the burqa.
A lot wear western clothes too!

Jupiter Joy, how exactly is your telling me to start my own thread a reply to my point: that the British have never had any compunctions (and still have none) about running the show in other people's countries, but persist in whining and carrying on about other people simply engaging in their own private cultural/religious practices in Britain?

Not seeing it, myself.

Woman wearing burqa on street in England
vs.
Military killing women and children in Iraq

Hmmmmmm. The British sure are put upon and abused.


The 21st century world is multicultural.

A lot of people really need to get over it.

"JC - if you had seen someone with brains spilling out of their skull, due to a head injury, or a person die because they refused a blood transfusion, you may think differently."

Think differently from what please, Liz?

Joy, I'm sorry if you won't even try to follow reasoning and prefer to stick with great big pronouncements that you make up that don't make sense, but it's not my problem.

You're the one who made the great big pronouncement that everybody should be treated the same.

IF that applies to what women will be allowed to wear on the street
THEN it applies to EVERYTHING ELSE too.

Everybody should be treated the same.

Pensioners should not get free bus passes. They should be treated the same as bankers in their 30s.

Women should not get time off work to deliver babies. They should be treated the same as men.

People with disabilities should not expect ramps at public buildings. They should be treated the same as the fully abled. And the blind should not expect Braille on elevator buttons in hospitals.


"the terrorist issue is just one part of it"?

Well, on that part of it, I am still waiting for your answer to my question:

Why are you not calling for men to be banned from carrying backpacks in public places?????

Men with backpacks HAVE BOMBED public places in England.

Women in burqas HAVE COMMITTED NO CRIMES in
England.

What sense does this make?

Maybe it's because banning backpacks would affect someone other than the nasty foreigners. I don't know.


And I guess I'll have to wait to find out what the other parts of this are. I haven't seen any. Are you offering some other reason for banning women from wearing burqas, other than that they might be wearing body bombs?

You should see what we wear in the winter here in Canada. Any one of us could be wearing enough bombage to blow up the CN Tower and you'd never know. And No.1 wears his parka hood so far over his face that all you can see is his nose. We haven't considered banning parkas yet, but maybe we should.

But let's be having it.

Why is it okay for men to walk around with backpacks?

as for how the british have treated peeps in the past is a whole new thread .
im british with other bits in me .the british treated the irish bad many years ago as they did the scotish .but pls feel free to stick a thread up .thats the reply to this bit,j aneyCanuck Today at 19:01 Request review
"British culture" is what you say it is.

I get it.

I personally think that since "British culture" meant, for centuries, roaming around the world stamping all over other people's religions and cultures and traditions and rights, the British can suck it up and stop whining, myself.

Jupiter Joy -- "everyone should be treated the same"

Let us then refuse to allow women leave from their jobs to give birth.

Men do not get leave from their jobs to give birth. And everyone must be treated the same.

Do you see the point? It is not always "fair" or "equal" to *treat everyone the same*.


no janey i dont see the point at all.this is about facial coverings .nuns show there face even tho there head is covered.vicars wear long cloak things but you can see there face .
one lady points out about turbans ...a valid point.we should be treated the same .the terrorist issue is just one part of it.this whole thread was about some want it banned some do not .not women not being allowed time off for babies.were way off track here

And if an adult Christian Scientist dies for want of a blood transfusion, they may regret it too.

We still don't hold them down and stick blood into their veins.

I am actually somewhat of two minds about turbans on motorcycles. No one needs to ride a motorcycle. I think making the choice, turban or motorcycle, might not be too drastic a rule. It is a rule that applies universally otherwise, for good reason, just as seatbelt laws do. Anyone who doesn't want to wear a helmet instead of a turban would be free not to ride a motorcycle. It's not quite comparable to making a choice between wearing a burqa and going out to buy groceries.

On the other hand, turbans on motorcycles aren't really that huge a deal.


On the article and photo I linked to above -- the very clear point is that by changing RCMP rules and traditions drastically, to allow members to wear turbans rather than Stetsons (which are just a dumb yankee import anyhow), the result has been to *integrate* Sikhs into Canadian society to a greater extent. There are devout Sikh members of the RCMP now, just as there have always been devout Roman Catholics and Baptists. And that really is a *good* thing, for Canadian society, not just for Sikhs.

And Sikhs in Canadian society see this -- Sikhs in the RCMP where there might otherwise not have been, and acceptance of Sikh practices in the RCMP -- and feel included. As do other minority groups who see minorities in the RCMP and other institutions.

NOT allowing devout Sikhs to wear turbans would have *excluded* them, not integrated them, and conveyed the same exclusionary message to other minority groups. Take off your turban or you do not qualify to work in one of the most symbolically Canadian institutions in the country -- not a really good way to get people to "integrate".

Banning burqas does the same thing. It doesn't encourage people to integrate. It just tells them they aren't wanted.

I am sure if one had a serious head injury, he would wish he had worn a helmet
Liz

Here's one for you all. ;)

http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=122&cat=8

C'mon, you gotta click to see the pic!

I have an idea that Sikhs in the British military have worn turbans for a long time - ?