General Chat

Maybe I don't know enough about him.

Getting along with people on a superficial social level is usually easy for narcissists.

Having a bunch of buddies one goes to strip bars and on sex tours to Thailand with -- not exactly deep meaningful relationships. Did he have some?

Is this the kind of man anyone here would want a deep meaningful relationship with? I gag at the thought, myself. ;)

Thats very true Rose, and there are plenty of times we can all be shocked, we didn't know this person or that person was like that.

But I don't really think that we can honestly speculate on the type of person DB actually was. He was well known in the community, the description *well known and respected* was given in several instances on the day of the shootings.

We don't know, and probably never will know, what really made him snap inside, if he was always inclined to that kind of loss of control, if there was something hidden away deep in the recesses of his personality, that one day would emerge with such tragic and awful consequences.

Uzzi, the entire point was that a failed joiner is not a loner -- they are two different things.

The person usually described as a loner (usually after some event like this) is most often not someone who enjoyed their own company, they are someone nobody else wanted to be in the company of.

That was the point.

Janey pmsl no I am happy with my loner, but after saying that what about the others he went to Thailand with doing the same thing ... they aren't about to become rampant killers so how could any of them thought that Bird would, they couldn't and like most things it has probably got twisted with the telling.

sorry there Janey but was sticking up for the "loners"

I class loners as those who like there own company, those who just are shunned by everbody aren't really loners and constantly try to make friends.

so Janey say you lived in the same village as Bird would he for you ticked all the right boxes of some one to be wary off?

with respect, "knowing someone"may not give you the insight as to what is happening inside his head.....years ago at work,I knew a younger bloke he seemed ok to every one..but one sunday at lunchtime went home from overtime at work, and put his head in a noose.........None of us co workers would have dreamt he could, or needed to do such a thing!

Bob

Uzzi and Haley -- that's what I was saying earlier.

The world is chock full of narcissists. Most of them just make the lives of people around them miserable. Only a small fraction reach this depth of failure and aggrieved self-absorption, and act on it in the way that Bird (or famously, the killer of 14 women in Montreal), did.

Have a read of that article for the more run-of-the-mill (and more successful) type:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/relationships/article2439812.ece


Uzzi, again, that was the point -- a loner is someone who likes to be alone; someone who is shunned because they are unpleasant isn't a loner, they're a failed joiner. ;) A loner is content not having a crowd; a failed joiner is unhappy -- and if they're a narcissist, the unhappiness becomes grievance and blame cast on everybody but themselves.

The most horrific thing about this man, is that this wasn't some spur of the moment decision. It was carefully planned and executed.... pun totally intended.

This man, however he came across in public, was evil, in my opinion. He shot his brother first, then went on his rampage. He actually walked up to one victim and shot her in the stomach... not a random shot from a moving vehicle, but a cold blooded deliberate murder. And as far as is known, he didn't know her!

I don't care if he was narcissistic, mentally ill, a loner, or a failed mixer, or a fetishist, visitor of prostitutes or whatever........whether people loved, hated, feared or just weren't sure of him.

I am just glad he has gone, and devastated that he took all those innocent people with him.

And those (the media) who have the audacity to criticise the police just to sell a paper or two should be hog whipped and put in the stocks... well, I know it isn't allowed, and is knee jerk and all that. But that is how I feel.

I think though, to be fair, people have a need to speculate because the events were so horrific... we actually WANT to find out that really, he was a horrid man, and everyone loathed him.... but that just doesn't seem to be coming across, does it.

Love

Daff xxx

Well said Daff

Bob I absolutely agree with you there, that is also similar to what my uncle did, life and soul at breakfast, but one short phone call (we never knew who it was or what it was about) and he went quiet, went home, and hung himself.

Yet he didn't fit a particular profile, none of us ever guessed he would do it, there were no clues other than the phone call.

WE don't know what flicks that switch, and I suppose our tolerance levels are all different, what might set one person off, another may not bat an eyelid at.

Daff I don't think anyone is disputing that in that moment, the moment when he decided to kill first his brother, then his solicitor then his friends at the taxi rank (and the police believe they were the only planned killings, the rest were random), that he was evil to the very core of him.

But was he always evil? Did he become evil in that moment or did it slowly grow in him? What makes a person turn to that sort of evil?

And I do agree that we will alway speculate on something we don't fully understand, just to try to make sense of it all, because we need to make sense of such a mess.

My belief is that the seed MUST have been there, even if it is carefully hidden. He didn't just wake up one morning and say *today Matthew, I am going to be a killer*


He planned this.... he knew exactly what he was doing, he was not in a blind rage, by the sounds of things, but calm... the word implacable comes to mind.

There are some folk who can be turned evil because of the way they are cruelly used and abused by the world... they develop a sort mental madness. But they may not have started that way

Others would kill to defend their children and family, given the need.

But he wasn't in either of those situations. No.... in my mind he would always have been evil, or have a severe personality disorder.... and Janey has it near right as far as I can tell..... not that she said he was evil, they were my words.

But I believe he was intrinsically evil.

He didn't hang himself... he shot all those people, and then himself. He wanted.... needed even... the blaze of warped *glory* and publicity. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing. I am convinced of it.

I know.... I am being opinionated again, lol.... but heck.... that's how strongly I feel.

Love

Daff xxxx

It's all hindsight and speculation.

When those people were in the last seconds of their life, they didn't think 'oh, he's a typical narcisisistic loner type person I'd better avoid him'. Psychological profiling is a totally inexact science except to those who extoll it's virtues. It's fallen out of favour here. Do you know how many serial killers went to make up the famous FBI serial killer profiling database? I do. I wouldn't have bothered.

Me, I take people as they come. Always have. Rasther than get bogged down by prejudices. If someone likes Thai girls, that's fine with me. Doesn't make them anything other than a Thai girl liking type person.

Well I have to say that I am not pleased that he is dead!

The families of victims of mass killers who have committed suicide in prison have said that they feel cheated by the death. Their suffering goes on and on, the killer's has ended.

Also they will likely never get a definitive answer as to why? If he was still alive they may just have a chance to find out.

Sue

Daff, "evil" is usually translated as "malignant narcissist", I think. ;)

TW is of course correct -- people want to make sense of things, including horrific things like this. That really is "human nature"!

Laying blame without cause or reason isn't making sense, it's just exploiting an opportunity to ride a hobbyhorse. (I don't think most people start blaming police in such a situation if they aren't predisposed against the police, for instance.)

Recognizing and acknowledging patterns of behaviour is, of course, quite different. If that sort of information becomes widely enough known, it might actually be more likely that more people like these could be identified.

For instance, if Bird had received attention for his apparent cutting problem, he might at least have got help coping with his various problems, that instead became his grievances and persecution and justification for his actions.

At the least, more people might be able to avoid the more run-of-the-mill narcissists (for example) and all the trouble they cause in one's life; even if one is not at actual risk of death, they can make life quite unpleasant.

Rag speculations will plant seeds about anyone,

None of us knew him. if we had we could possibly be saying as some residents of Whitehaven,,,,,he was an ok guy very likeable,,
anyone you know could go and do the same thing tomorrow,you dont belive that now at this moment,but it could happen.,,,

I wonder what other snipe thay will be paying for to publish in the media,,,,like all the photos that are now appearing,someone must be getting their hands lined with a sliver of silver.!!

Kay????, quite possibly "anyone you know could go and do the same thing tomorrow".

The thing is, there are *reasons* why that happens. It isn't magic.

Sue I am glad it's over, he's dead so there is no way he can escape and do it again but also it stops a long court case where they would not get satisfaction just re-runs of their nightmares.
Victims of mass suicide killers might feel cheated but what would make them happy .....attending the killing of said person .... I doubt it.

If somebody had killed a member of my family and then died yes I may have felt hard done by that it wasn't by my hands and maybe I may enjoyed being able to watch their death through a window ( I doubt it) The only reason for hating an untimely death is because they didn't suffer the ills we could wish on them.
It's human nature to wish for those to bring hurt will suffer it more

Of course there is ,but like you I'm not a qualified killer profiler,or like those in Whitehaven could read anyones mind,

Quite obvious he had a breakdown of some kind. ,,,, its been quoted he had planned this for over 20 years fgs,,,,the young taxi driver wasnt even a cab man then,,,,,,!!

Its all beyond sadness.