Genealogy Chat

Firstly, when did they redecorate? I mean just out of interest... I'm not liking this new format!

Secondly, does anyone have any ideas on how to move forwards with the following Dad dilemma please?

My Gt Gt Gt Grandfather was definetely a William Everett Vale born 1844 married to Mary Ann Shillingford born c1845. I found their marriage certificate and it states that William's Father's was Henry Everett Vale - a lawyer.

I then ordered the birth cert for a William Vale born 1844 in St Clement Danes (same birth place as on census returns). Great I thought, shows his middle name as the unusual "Everett" and his Father as a Lawyer. But on this cert his Father's name is Joseph Everett Vale (Mother Mary Ann nee Norton).

Okay, so it could be a mistake, a mishearing on one of the records maybe or even maybe there were two William Everett Vales born in Middlesex in 1844 and I just can’t find the right one.

But then why can I only find a likely match for William on the census returns (prior to his 1868 marriage) as living with John Vale and Isabella (Scutchings)???

I just can’t think how to find out who William’s parents were if I’m not sure about the records I’ve got and can’t find the family on the census records. I’m on Ancestry so I’ve looked for every possibility on there already. I can’t see parish records being any help at this stage as I can’t decide for sure if I’ve got the right birth certificate. I must have the right marriage cert for William because of the wife’s name.

I also can't find any marriage of Mary Ann Norton to a Vale.

Any suggestions on where to look or what to look for next?

1851 have you ruled out this William Vale?

Name: William Vale
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Chigwell
County/Island: Essex
Country: England


Registration district: Epping
Sub-registration district: Chigwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 2c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 30
Household Members: Name Age
William Connil 8
Isabella Fletcher 8
Anne Gunsdale 5
Elizath Moowe 15
Emma Osborn 16
Ann Ross 76
Eliza Ross 40
Mary A Ross 42
Charles Simpson 2
Elizabeth Simpson 8
Emma Simpson 3
George Simpson 9
Mary Simpson 5
Thomas Simpson 7
William Simpson 8
Ellen Smith 10
Isabella Smith 6
Samuell Smith 8
Frances Treadwell 6
Charles Vale 5
William Vale 8

Hi Glitterbaby, thanks loads for having a look - ideas very welcome on this one!

I have ruled that one out yes. William was a Strand boy all his life from the info I've got and that includes places of birth and places of dwelling on the later census returns so I just think (though of course I'm not certain) that this guy didn't stray far from home. His YOB is always given as 1844 as well suggesting he always knew his age and wasn't born near the census months.

And even if it was correct - why can I not find the parents anywhere?

I'm on Ancestry at the minute going through far-fetched searches but still not coming up with anything remotely suitable.

Though the birth cert I have could be wrong, I just have this really strong suspicion that it isn't. I think the name is the mystery as is the whereabouts of the family as a whole after William's birth.

BTW I can't decide what the address on the birth cert is which doesn't help! Looks like it could be any number of streets: Vine Street, Rose Street, Yew Street. Definetely Strand, St Clement Danes in Middx though!

Been trying to find a death for either Henry or Joseph Everett Vale but having no luck

1861 have you looked at this one

Name: William Dale
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: St Clement, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Westminster St Martin in The Fields
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: St Martin In The Fields
Sub-registration district: Long Acre
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 88
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Bales 55
Mary Ann Bales 41
William Dale 16
Bridget Mc Grath 8
Edward Mc Grath 17
Lawrence Mc Grath 22
Mary Ann Mc Grath 46

William is Vale(s) on image

Huh...

I drew breath when I read that Glitterbaby!

Bear with me, will have a look.

Argh, I can't see that it is? We're looking for Henry and Mary Ann as parents, okay, could be a mistake on the "in law" bit BUT Henry is given as a Lawyer on the certs and here he's given as a Porter.

It's the right era and place of birth for William though isn't it? And if they're his parents not in-laws, they've got the right christian names. They couldn't be in-laws of a 16yr old surely though? Not in the late 1800's?

Confusion, confusion... Will think some more.

Help appreciated heaps whether it gets the right family in the end or not of course ;o)

If his parents had died and he was adopted (whether formally or informally) might the adoptive parents have been described in those days as in laws? They seem to have had different ways of describing some relationships.

Eleanor, I believe you may have to rethink the father's occupation.

Have a look at the certs again. Are you sure they don't say "sawyer"?

"In-law" in those days often referred to step-relations.

Thanks Carolling and Mary - I didn't think about in-law having an alternative meaning.

Mary you could be right about "sawyer". I did think it odd that someone would be a lawyer in England but then olde speak often throws me...

If it helps, this is the definete trail:

Frederick Herbert Vale married: 1908 aged 26. He lived at 15 Betterton Street, St Giles in the Fields, London. His Father was William Vale a Packing Case Maker.

1901 Cenus: 2 Wilson’s Place, Gray’s Inn Lane, St Pancras, London. Head: William Vale, Porter, 57 (born 1844 at London), Mary Ann, 55 (born 1846): children; Thomas 24, Fred 19 and James 16.

1891 Census: 2 Windsor Court, St Mary Le Strand, London. Head: William Vale, Market Porter, 47 (born 1844 at London), Mary Ann, 46 (born 1845): Children; William 22, Market Porter, George 19, Frederick 9, James 5.

1882: Frederick’s Birth: 11 Sep 1882, 8 Granby Place, St Clement Danes, Strand, Middx. Father William Vale, Market Porter. Mother Mary Ann formerly Shillingford.

1881 Census: 6 Granby Place, St Clement Danes, Strand, Middx. Head: William Vale, Covent Garden Porter, 37 (born 1844 at Middx London), Mary Ann 36 (born 1845): Children; William 12, Mary A 11, George 9, Rosina 6, Thomas 4, Charles 10m.

1871 Census: 15 White Hart Street, Long Acre, St Martin in the Fields. Head: William Everett Vale, 27 (born 1844 at Middx London), Covent Garden Porter. Mary Ann, 26 (born 1845): Children; William B E 2 and Mary Ann Flora 9m.

1868: William Everett Vale, full age, a Porter married Mary Ann Shillingford, full age; both of Whitehart Street, St Martin in the Fields, Middx. Fathers were: Henry Everett Vale, Lawyer/Sawyer and Benjamin Shillingford, Book???. Witnesses were Benjamin Shillingford and Mary Ann Willcocks.

Possibility: 1844 Birth Cert: 09/08/1844 St Clement Danes, Strand, William Everett Vale born to Joseph Everett Vale, Lawyer/Sawyer and Mary Ann (formerly Norton).

That address of the census return Glitterbaby suggested - it's right by White Hart Street where William lived in 1871...

Marriages Jun 1849 (>99%)

Bales Henry St. Martin 1 161
Vale Mary Ann St Martin 1 161

So Henry was William's stepfather.

Mary you absolute blooming star.

Does that not explain most of the descrepancies?!?!?

And yes, I'm still awake at nearly 4am this has wound me up that much!!!

I bet this is the family in 1851 - right occupation for Henry (porter) and right birthplace for Mary Ann:

1851 England Census
about Mary Bates

Name: Mary Bates
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Henry
Gender: Female
Where born: St Bride, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Paul Covent Garden
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 1f
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 133

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Bates 12
George Bates 8
Henry Bates 45
Mary Bates 32
William Bates 6
Mary Ann Payne 34

Deaths Sep 1847 (>99%)
Vale Joseph St Geo East 2 88

Yes I'd expect so given the age difference as well.

This Covent Garden theme makes me "hmmm" about another member's line as well you know. All their Vales were Covent Garden Porters too. That's by the by for now though!

How'd you find that?

I'd seen that death, and dismissed it having not recognised St Geo. Having just googled it though, I find it's an abbreviation for St GEORGE as in LONDON.

Oh bless me. I always get these problems when I stare at problems for too long...

Thanks so much mary, you've been an absolutely brilliant help and I'd have never worked this out without you! Hopefully you've given me what I need to move on now :o)

Eleanor x

I found them in 1851 by searching for William, no surname, parents Henry and Mary, born 1844 +/-5 in Middlesex.

I can't find Joseph or Mary in 1841, but I've found what looks like Henry with his first wife and children. Charles was one of his.

1841 England Census
about Charles Bales
Name: Charles Bales
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Mary Le Strand
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England


Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Mary
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Bales 8
Charles Bales 2
Ellen Bales 8
Emily Bales 6
Louisa Bales 30
Marth Bales 4
Nuny Bales 30 (Henry on the image)
William Bales 10

No I can't find Joseph in 1841 either but then the 1841 census is always a pickle anyway.

I never thought to search for William with the parent's first names; I tried Henry and Mary Ann with no surnames but got a huge list I couldn't see any likely candidates for. It was probably there though!

Mind you, I just found this:

Name: Joseph
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Male

Civil Parish: St George Middlesex
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: St George in the East
Sub-registration district: St Paul
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:

Joseph 20
Mary 20

I can't read the original image though! Grr, right names, right ages, right location - but I just can't read that surname on the image. Neither could the transcriber in fairness!