Genealogy Chat

I am about to order a birth cert for my gt grandfather Thomas Jarman born Llanidloes mont.My problem is this his birth year changes on the census.
1901 census age 36 birth year 1865 I know this is right thomas because it is my grandmothers family Hannah jarman is his 2nd wife married in 1899 (My Gt Grandmother)
1891 census age 28 birth year 1863 living with first wife Elizabeth
1881 I tried going back to his birth year and came up with Thomas (1863 no 1865 age 18 birth year 1863 living with father and grandmother
1871 census same family with 12 year old Thomas birth year 1859
1861 census same family with 2 year old thomas birth year 1859
free bmd gives me Thomas Jarmans born Llanidloes reg district Newtown Q3 1859
Newtown Q1 1862
Newtown Q1 1864
Newtown Q2 1865
I cannot be sure until I get the cert that I have the right Thomas's family but what birth year? I would really like someone else to have a look at this and give me some advice please.Would it be better to get marriage cert first? I am at a loss been working on and off for about a year and am no nearer to a solution. My thanks in advance to anyone willing to help. Val

I would buy a copy of the marriage certificate which you know is definitely the correct Thomas...ie. the marriage to your direct ancestor in 1899.
You will then get his father's name and be able to use that as a checking point for his birth certificate.

Gwyn

Thank you Gwyneth for your reply. All the time I have looked at this problem I hadn't thought about the marriage cert side of it until I was typing this out.This is probably the best way to go . Thanks again for your reply I must go to bed now, but find I do my best thinking late at night.
Val

Val,

Birth year can vary on censuses by up to 2 years.

The person gave their age on census night.

It is the modern transcriber who has changed that into birth year.

Depending on when the census was actually taken vs the person's birth date, there could be 2 years difference.

So get the marriage certificate first as that shoudl give us a lead to his father,


........ but don't get too hung up over the different years!


sylvia

Handy to keep...

Census dates.

6 June 1841
30 March 1851
7 April 1861
2 April 1871
3 April 1881
5 April 1891
31 March 1901

Gerri x

Bear in mind, also, that birth registration wasn't compulsory until 1875...........so the birth may simply not have been registered.

One certainty....you can rule out all entries which were after the 1861 census.........he was 2 yrs old on that one!

So.....he would have been born 1858/9........certainly no later than two years before the date of 1861 census...............

Reg

Hi All thanks for all your input on this I will be going to the local office in next few days to order the cert. The worst part was 36years old in 1901 and 28 in 1891 and if he was born in 58/59 he would have been 42 !!and I thought only women lied about their ages !!! LOL Thanks again everyone Val

may be he married a much younger wife!!!!


male vanity you know



sylvia

I have had Thomas's marriage cert for three months now and am still no nearer to finding his birth reg.! Marriage cert states:-

Date of marriage 1899
Thomas Jarman age 34 batchelor occ Mason Father Thomas Jarman Deceased father occ Sawyer

This now puts his birth date in 1865 which ties in with 1901 census.

The batchelor part threw me as in 1891 he is living with elizabeth as wife. I accept that they might not have been married as cannot find a marriage but I know he had a child prior to marrying my gtgrandmother.

Back to the census I have tried all years to tie up Thomas senior to Thomas junior and cannot find one born in llanidloes that match.

Is anyone out there who would be willing to have a look please as it's driving me nuts !!

Could be that when he married in 1899 he told the vicar he was a bachelor (or the vicar assumed he was) - perhaps he had told his wife-to-be that he was a bachelor and had to go along with the lie on the wedding certificate/

Or, the Elizabeth who was down as his "wife" was never married to him - they may have just cohabited - but either the census enumerator assumed they were married or they claimed to be married to look "respectable". If they were cohabiting back then, I doubt they would have admitted it, especially if they had a child. This would mean he really was a bachelor when he married.

Hi Kate
Thanks for that. But perhaps I didn't make it clear what I need is to find Thomas on a census with his family. I cannot order a cert until I can tie his parents down and this is what I cannot find. I am now wondering if his mother wasn't married and if that's the case how do I find her ?

older but?
1871 Wales Census
about Ann Ashton
Name: Ann Ashton
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanidloes, Montgomeryshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Llanidloes
County/Island: Montgomeryshire
Country: Wales

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Newtown
Sub-registration district: Lower Llanidloes
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Ashton 64
John Ashton 78
Mary Ashton 80
Thomas Chapman 29
Thomas Jarman 10
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
1861 Wales Census
about Ann Ashton
Name: Ann Ashton
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1808
Relation: Sister-in-law
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanidloes, Montgomeryshire, Wales

Civil Parish or Township: Manledd
County/Island: Montgomeryshire
Country: Wales

Street address: View Image
Condition as to marriage: View Image
Education: View Image
Employment status: View Image
Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Newtown
Sub-registration district: Lower Llanidloes
ED, institution, or vessel: 6a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Ashton 53
Edward Ashton 15
John Ashton 61
Mary Ashton 63
Richard Ashton 24
Richard Ashton 3
Thomas Davies 18
John Evans 2
Mary Evans 20
Ann Jerman 3days
Elizabeth Jerman 21
Thomas Jerman 26
Thomas Jerman 1

There is this one (mistranslated as Farman on Ancestry but with a note to say it could be Jarman - the image certainly looks like Jarman):

1871 Wales - Allt Goch, Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire

Thomas Jarman Head 36 Lead ore miner b. Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire
Mary Jarman Wife 37 miners wife b. Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire
Thomas Jarman Son 13 tailors apprentice b. Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire
Joseph G Jarman Son 11m miners son b. Llandinam Montgomeryshire
William Jarmon Son 3 miners son b. Aberdare Glamorganshire
Benjamin Griffiths Nephew 3 butlers son b. Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire

Trefeglwys is in the subregistration district of Lower Llanidloes, if that's any help.

.....

Ten years before, the same family, I think. All born in Gyntrefnant, this time.

Llanrygwyn (?), Glyntrefnant, Montgomeryshire

Thomas Jarman 26 Head Mar Ag labourer
Mary Jarman 27 Wife Ag labourer wife
Thomas Jarman 3

Jim what relation were the thomas's on the 61 census to ann ashton please.

Kate His father's occ was a sawyer ??? Is that anything to do with mining ?He would have also been born 1858 and his occ is wrong he states mason on marriage cert

1871 Wales Census
about Thomas Jarman
Name: Thomas Jarman
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Grandson of Ann Ashton
Gender: Male
Where born: Llanidloes, Montgomeryshire, Wales

Is that the one jim that says " dumb since birth " because I ruled him out. Have a living relative of his (Thomas's )second wife and she would have known this and she never mentioned it and I think she would have.

Must go to bed thank you all for your help, don't know how I can tie him down. There are so many Jarman families in Llanidloes. I am grey already so can't get any greyer Lol

Will look at this again tomorrow , thanks again Val

A sawyer operates a saw............usually with wood or stone...........check online dictionary for full and accurate definition.

Reg

Thanks Reg for that but still cannot tie him down on the census. I don't know how to tie his birth down to order a cert. I thought getting marriage cert would help, but it hasn't. I have a lot of Thomas's but nothing adds up. No clues as to his family, and cannot tie his mother and father together so if it was an illegitimite birth how can I find his mother ?
I have traced various thomas's through the census and am still none the wiser.