Genealogy Chat

Sorry Peter, It's William and Shadrach who appear separately on 1881.

I shall have to either go back to Aylesbury RO or find someone to look up the Long Crendon register. If anyone is able to do that for me - I'd be eternally grateful.

Ivy, I found some baptisms at Lower Winchendon in 1880 for some of James and Mary's children on the IGI - obviously done late.

Judith, thanks for putting it into some sort of order, it helps me clarify things a bit better. I like your theory.

I'm wondering now if the following ideas would be useful to follow up:
to see if James might have been witness at Shadrack's wedding, will need to investigate.
to see if Shadrach might possibly be informant on William's wife, Anna's, death if they lived nearby, that would help, again I need to investigate.

I'm also wondering if any of the other children of James and Mary ended up in the Isleworth area?

Mumsy.

1851 james and Mary in Cuddington have children Martha 7
Joseph 5
Mesech 3
Sarah 1

1861 James and Mary, now in Nether Winchendon have
Meshech 13
Thomas 9
Mary Ann 6
Emma 4
Ellen 2
Eliza under 1
Martha 16 was living in as a servant in Beds,
Joseph 14 a lodger in Aylesbury

1871
At home with James and Mary:
Shadrach 24
Thomas 20
Emma 14
Ellen 12
Eliza 10
Kate 5

William 23, born Long Crendon was in Isleworth

1881
Mary, widowed has 4 daughters at home in Nether Winchendon
No Joseph Small of the right age to be found.
William 34 and Shadrach 32 both living in Isleworth

My theory (similar to yours) is that there were three sons of James and Mary -
Joseph aka Shadrach
William aka Meshech
Thomas (wonder whether he was ever known as Abednigo?!)

Mumsy,

Just a few more points. William's father is given as James Small. There are not all that many Small families in Bucks in 1851 and 1861. There are just two James Small families raising children in the 1840s. Meshach's father (James)' family are in Cuddington in 1851 (Aylesbury district), but only the youngest was born there - the rest were born in Crendon (Thame district). All are registered, as are the other Thame family of Smalls (parents William and Harriet). These two families account for all the births registered in the Thame district from Free BMD.

Christine has found only William and Harriet baptising their children. Since James and Mary did not, they may have beeen non-conformist? There was a stronger use of biblical names by the non-conformists.

There are several more Small families in the Aylesbury area (74 individuals in 1851), and both the above families have moved there by 1851, so that there are only 4 Smalls in the Thame area. Since your William lays claim to James and Crendon, then your theory looks pretty solid.

(How about if we only have one child? Shadrach and William are in different enumeration districts in Isleworth, and there were no family witnesses to the wedding) - no no no, I'm sorry, your very first posting said that Shadrack is on the 1891 census near William's widow! - I like Judth's theory too (5.09.07)

Mumsy,

Didn't you say in your original post that Meschech and Shadrach appear separately on the 1881? That seems to conflict with your last posting.

It would be rather odd for the same person to be known by these two names; it would be like someone being known as both Cain and Abel.

Have you had any joy with the parish register of Long Crendon? Surely that would solve it?

Peter

William was born in Long Crendon and so was the mother and some siblings of Shadrach and Meshec around those years.

I have both William in 1881 and Shadrach in 1881 at separate addresses so they can't be the same person.

I haven't seen any original records, I've only looked on Ancestry and IGI. I did look at the local area RO about 18 months back when the man there helped look for me, but I was only looking for William in Long Crendon and had less detail at the time.

I haven't abandoned the Aylesbury refs but the man at the RO told me Long Crendon was registered in Thame district. I'll try to check them out as you suggested.

I'm really grateful for all the help. I hope I'm not just clutching at straws.
Mumsy.

I CAN'T find:

Meshech on 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 nor can I find his Death.
Shadrach on 1861, 1851 nor a Birth.
William on 1861, 1851 nor a Birth.

I have both William in 1881 and Shadrach in 1881 separately.

Mumsy.

Mumsy,

This really is intriguing: the more I think about it the less it seems a mere coincidence to have Meshach and Shadrach living so close to one another. Perhaps Meshach's brother was either not registered or he was given the nickname Shadrach for obvious reasons and kept it, whereas Meschach decided to have a more conventional name.

Have you found any of them on the 1851 and 1861 censuses?

Peter

I already have one of these and it is definately the wrong one. As there are a few others registered in Aylesbury, rather than Thame, I thought I'd try looking for James. (See my last posting.)
Mumsy.

I tried to find William's father James in the Long Crendon area and when I found this one with a wife and children born in Long Crendon I thought it might be possible.

When I then found Shadrach living a few doors away from William's wife in Isleworth I thought the coincidence too much for them not to be related.

Do you think I'm a fool to pursue this theory? I may know my way round some of the sites fairly well but I'm not as competent as it may seem at researching.

Mumsy.

Hi Maggiemay,
I got the detail from the Census starting with my grandmother. I also have Williams death from 1889 stating his age as 42yrs.
On 1871 it says Long Crendon, Bucks and 1881 says Bucks.
He had died by 1891 so Anna, his wife shows as a widow with the children.
I've been searching the IGI and can't find a marriage but other siblings of Shadrach and Meshach were also born Long Crendon (but not all).
Mumsy.

Thanks Margaret,

I think these are very likely and probably the only way to prove the link is to order these two certificates. I was hoping to be more encouraged that William and Meshech are the same person before I spent any more money.

I PM'd someone who has Shadrack on her tree on here but have had no reply so far.

I'm ever hopeful.
Mumsy.

Hi Margaret,

I don't think this is him. I ordered birth cert from Aylesbury district some time ago and it turned out not to be him. I have since been told that Long Crendon is/was registered in the Thame district.
Mumsy.

Am I still right in thinking Meshech and William are the same person? I think the Long Crendon / Isleworth connection must mean something.

Thanks again Christine, I too must get some work done now.
Mumsy.

Either Shadrach wasn't registered, or it needs a more devoted searcher than I have time to be in my lunch break!

Christine

I've submitted a correction to FreeBMD for both the spelling of Meshach and the page number (which should be 105)

Haven't spotted Shadrach, yet, either.

Christine

Thanks Christine, but I think if the James of Shadrach and Meshech is mine he was born in Lower Winchendon 20/5/1816 and baptised 21/7/1816 parents John Small and Hannah.

I can't go too far without being sure that this is William's father.
Mumsy.

Mumsy,

I've looked on freeBMD and have found the birth of Mashach but not Shadrach or William in the same quarter so, assuming the coverage is full, my twin theory collapses. A pity.

Peter

The IGI for Long Crendon (batch C109722) has only

Martha & Henry SMALL - Bap 22 OCT 1848
and
James SMALL - Bap 25 DEC 1843

all children of William SMALL & Harriet

Christine

William just put his X mark on the marriage cert and the witnesses were Harriett Stevens and Russell Stinton.

It may be that they were born at either end of the year as the birth ref I have for Meshech is Jan quarter, so Shadrach could have been Dec quarter but I can't find that.
Mumsy.

Mumsy,

You would expect a twin to be a witness at his bother's wedding. Could William write? Perhaps his brother couldn't either.

Peter