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From IGI I have the joint baptism of supposedly 3 sisters on 29th September 1850 in Derby: Esther Smithard age 9 Martha Smithard age 7 Emma Smithard No age given Puzzle 1: Are Martha and Emma the same girl? In June 1867 Martha Smithard marries John Riley Drakeley. They are together on the 1871 census. In 1881, 1891 and 1901 John's wife is Emma, same birthplace, same year of birth. No other marriage for John and no death for Martha to be found, I have located births for Esther and Martha, nothing for an Emma. Puzzle 2: In July 1867 Esther marries Samuel Hawkridge, one of the witnesses DR Martha Drakeley. A woman doctor aged 22 in 1867??? I rang the register office who supplied me with the cert and they've checked again. It definitely says Doctor Martha Drakeley on the original entry. John's mother is not called Martha, nor as far as I can check on IGI, does he have any sisters called Martha or any brothers who have married a Martha and given that the other witness is Samuel's brother, I am deducting that the 1st witness is Esther's sister. There's no occupation stated on any of the census for Emma/Martha and no reference to DR on the returns either. Help...my brain is frying with this one! Lou

She may not have been a medical doctor, just someone who had got a degree in something like philosophy or theology.

What was her husband's occupation on the census? I think it highly unlikely that a married woman in those days had any kind of doctorate---you had to choose between career or marriage, even assuming you were in the lucky position to have been given an education as a mere girl. Many of my ancestors [male] were literate, some reasonably well -educated, but few of the females---at least not those who married! I wonder if DR could mean anything else? Any ideas?

Wendy On the original entry it says Doctor not Dr. That's what I rang to check! Her husband was something on the Railway, the 1871 image isn't too clear. I'm very dubious about the whole thing and she'd be too young on the 1861 census for that to give any clues. My Dad suggested something along the lines of apocotheray (however you spell it!) but still not convinced! Lou

Lou, Have you tried checking local directories? Presumably if she was a doctor she would be listed somewhere.

Lou, That suggestion of some kind of "apothecary" is not such a bad idea! Had she set herself up as some kind of "advisor", or herbalist of some kind and just called herself "doctor"? Whatever the case, she definitely needs some research done on her! What a character to have in your family in 1866! She definitely beats my 1890 "aeronaut" anyway!

I like Louise's suggestion of directories. If she was in some sort of business she should show up in a directory. Try under midwives, herbalists, apothecaries etc!!!!

Hi Lou, think it says on 1871 census that he's a Joiner at Midland Railway. Wish some of mine had a bit mystery behind them, boring lot!LOL Christine

I have to say that if she married a joiner, she was definitely NOT a doctor. This is not being non PC. In 1866 people did not marry outside their "social groups". Due to lack of education, most stayed within the class in which they were born, and married accordingly. A girl who had been given sufficient education to go to University would not be meeting a young man who was a joiner! Sorry, but that is true. I think it is true that very very few young women went to University in those days. And those who did, did not marry at 22 to a Joiner! And 22 is too young to be a doctor anyway. Great puzzle Lou.

Louise Where would I get hold of a directory? Lou

Wendy That's the main thing that piqued my interest. I'm 'officially' a doctor (NOT that I ever use the title...well, not in everyday life!) and it took me 5 years and one hell of a lot of hard graft. But I bet it was a lot harder in 1867! I just can't understand why she would call herself a doctor if she wasn't. I know they weren't all that crash hot on checking people's ages back then but surely something like that would have raised a few eyebrows and questions been asked! Lou

Lou, Try this website www(.)historicaldirectories(.)org/hd/index(.)asp Also you could probably get hold of some via the nearest main library or perhaps the local family history society. Good luck. Louise

Lou, This is the most interesting thread I have found since I joined last april. I know that had she appeared on one of my certs I would have pursued her to the ends of the earth!! I do not believe she was a doctor! But what on earth was she? I think the directories of the area are the first resort. I know nothing of the derby area sadly. But this is what family history is all about--not just names and dates--but putting flesh on bones. If you find her, and can tell her story, what a story that will be! Can you find her anywhere else? Did she have children? Can you find her death cert?---that could be interesting. Sorry, I ramble, but this story has really grabbed me.

Thanks Louise The closest I can find is Derbyshire 1895 Kelly's, there doesn't seem to be much online before that but am looking now. Wendy IF Martha/Emma are the same woman then she had 3 children, but I can't locate a death for her under Martha. She's Martha in 1871 and from 1881 onwards she's Emma. Funny thing is SHE isn't even my direct line, sister Esther is, and this is the woman I've become fascinated with! Pat That's normal...you see yourself in black and everyone else in blue! Back in a min....

Well no sign of Martha/Emma but browsing a few pages I found George Hawkridge, Tailor, and Thomas Smithard, Pork Butcher, so they may come in handy at some point. Ok...onto Henry Hawkridge for a while while I have a think about dear Martha/Emma! Lou

Lou. I have to say this has really grabbed me. Do you have the birth cert for any of her children? Could this help? Incidentally, the fact she is not a direct ancestor is totally irrelevant. I have found that the most interesting ancestors are from a side line of the family. They are still family---still important. Why else do I preserve the exploits of my great grandfather's cousin? Just because he was interesting. I do think the directories are worth pursuing---my husband has just come up with the option of "seller of cure-alls" i.e purveyor of cures!!!

I came up with 'Lived in La-La Land'...is that close! I know that the fact she's not my direct line shouldn't matter, I've just been trying to only buy certs relating to the direct line to try and keep the cost down (not been earning for 18 months, due to having 2 kids in a very short space of time, one of whom has been temporarily disabled for a while!. However, I think I'm going to get her marriage cert...given that she only got married the qtr before she's the witness to her sister's marriage, be interesting to see what she calls herself on that! She's certainly the most interesting one so far. Beats my cotton spinners and general labourers into the ground! Lou

Lou, I assume you have traced her through the census? Where was she in 1881,1891 etc. Have you found her? Where was she born? Could that help at all?

Wendy No clues...born Derby same as her sister. She's on the 1871 census with 3 children and her husband. By 1881 the husband and children are with a wife called Emma and she remains called Emma in 1891 and 1901. That's why I need to establish whether Martha and Emma are the same girl. I can't find a death for Martha between 1871 and 1881, nor a re-marriage for the husband in the same time period. It's definitely the same family...living at the same address and the children are the same ones, with a few additions! Lou