Genealogy Chat

Karen Try your library first and see where you go from there. My own Oz experience of research in your wonderful country is that they have some very good Family History Societies to which we belong, and have gained much information from them, so I am sure they would have copies of 'Phillimore' (The affectionate name for the book) and used by Family Historians and Genealogists all over the world. Do try your local library first and if they have not got one, ask them to buy one, because it really is an essential guide. My own library did not have a copy and I asked them to purchase one. They did and it is only a very small library. Janet

woah.....50 pound would probably buy you a car in OZ ! I wonder if a library would have a copy. I must find a family history place near me somewhere.

Julie You have unleashed a can of worms. How about the 'Fleet Marriages' and all the Gretna Green Marriages, and any other clandestine marriages? Still want to do Family History? Janet

And sorry just to put my oar in I have one of mine married but it is registered in the Lamberton Toll book (rogue vicar I believe who married people unlawfully????)

Phillimores Atlas and Indexes of Parishes is a MUST for this sort of query. It is an expensive book at £50 but you may find a secondhand copy somewhere, that is your choice to purchase or not. You can usually obtain a copy at your local Reference Library to look through to see what is available. Also bear in mind that people dying many miles from their place of abode may have ended up in a totally different part of the country for burial. For example I had one who died in Torquay, Devon in the 1850's and was transported back to his home place in Northamptonshire for burial. That was unusual for the times. In most other cases that person would have died in Torquay and be buried there quite possibly in a Paupers Grave. Ag Labs looking for work in other counties, Carters moving around the country, and many others would come under this category. When people married and the register states 'Of this Parish' OTP for short, it just meant they were living in the parish at the time of their marriage. However the bonus is where it states that the person is of ...naming the parish they came from. Our ancestors travelled more than we realise and many women travelled several miles to find work within a big house or nearest big town, usually in service somewhere and may be just over the border of several counties. Likewise the Ag Labs had to travel around looking for work during the various seasons. It is a good idea to arm yourself with a thorough knowledge of the Parish System in the UK before undertaking research and as Clive has so rightly pointed out that 'Phillimores Atlas and Index of Parish Registers is indeed the 'Bible' of all family historians/genealogists . Janet

!!!!!!??????!?!?!?!?!?!!? I think I will just hop back under my mushroom.

Just to confuse everybody even further both parish boundaries and diocesan areas have been in an almost constant state of change since the dissolution of the monastries by Henry VIII. The usualy ackowledged 'bible' for pre1832 detail is the'Phillimore Atlas and Index of Parish Registers'. Can be usefull for tracing the wherabouts of parish registers as well as detailing the years covered by still existing information and recordswhich is not always the County record office. Even county boundaries have changrd over the years.My grandmother was born in a little hamlet called Two Gates, which hoped over the borders of Staffordshire and Warwickshire at least four times during the 18th and 19th centuries. Copy of Phillimores available if I can be of any help. Clive

oh no....... So is there no way of knowing which church an ancestor married in, if the cert says parish of ..........????

Just to confuse you even more Karen, a 'See' is an area covered by a Cathedral with a Bishop in charge. this has lots of parishes within it, and doesn't necessarily just cover the parishes around the cathedral. winchester Cathedral owns land (therefore a 'See' of Winchester) in Berkshire!! maggie

thanks everyone.... no wonder I was confused.

Parish of Bushey - three churches... I suspect that, technically, the sister churches are Chapels of Ease but they are always referred to as churches. Only the Parish Church has any legal clout. It's in the Parish Church that the Collation (an Induction, really, but when the parish is in the gift of the diocesan bishop) will take place. The parish church wardens have authority over all three, but there are 'deputy wardens' who take on responsibilities in the individual churches to free off the Wardens a bit. Christine

Ah right, so may be thats why my guy is crossed out. He is buried in a different church yard in the same area.

nudge for Heather. nell

Come to that, I have seen three churches with a single graveyard. Three different parishes and the poor incumbents were forever crossing out burial entries because they'd made them in the wrong book.

You obviously know more on this point, Christine. How does it work administratively, though? Are they ancient churches? I've seen daughter churches split from the mother church to form their own parish, but they usually start off as a chapel of ease.

Brenda - that's not strictly true. In Bushey, Herts, there is the parish church (dedicated to St James) but there are two sister churches in the parish (St Paul's, and Holy Trinity). Baptisms and funerals may be conducted in the two sister churches, but they are not licensed for weddings, so any wedding in those two would have to be conducted under special licence. They are all Church of England. It is fair to say that it is unusual to have more than one C of E church within a parish. Christine

There is one (Church of England) church in a parish. Parishes can be any shape or size. There were zillions in Norwich or the City of London, but very few in poor rural areas. Occasionally there would be a (Cof E) chapel in a parish. In the 1800s, populations grew, putting such pressure on some of the parishes, which had responsibilities beyond baptisms, marriages and burials that the parishes were subdivided and new parishes created, each with their own church. People will talk of the parish church of Xtown, but they will also call it St Y. Virtually all churches have a dedication to a saint, and this helps to distinguish city churches.

PS if the Bishop Wilton you refer to is the one in the East Riding of Yorkshire its parish church is dedicated to St Hilda and there is a photo of it on the Genuki site. Judith

If you don't know this site it helps a great deal. Go to www.*genuki.*org.*uk. Just takes the *'s out before you type it in. On the home page click on contents and search on the top right hand corner. On the new page click on England Page. This brings up a list of all of the counties, choose one then of you go. Linda

In England, in church of England terms, a parish is the area served by the parish church, could be a whole village (which just to confuse may also be a civil parish which is a local government term unrelated to church) or just part of a larger town which has more than one parish church. Sometimes, when an area's population grows, or some of the people live a long way from the parish church a second 'daughter church' or 'chapel of ease' is built. Later the parish may sub divide and each of these churches become a parish church in its own right. If you find reference to the parish church of 'place name' it probably means that parish only has one church so no need to refer to it by its saints name. Hope this helps Judith