Genealogy Chat

Hello Laird Thanks .................there is no way I would have been this far forward without your help. I am always glad of guidance and suggestions on this Family History Research. Best wishes Gloria

No debate Gloria - when I found that census entry, I could see it was Lewis on the image!

Hello Chris It would be much more straightforward if folk wrote without the 'fancy' bits added, I am also convinced that the Severio is Lewis/Louis done by an over the top 'Loopy' enumerator! There may well be quite a few variations on Mary Ann Fallon/Fallen surname, but I'll keep searching for the marriage certificate for her and Patrick Dunn or Dunne and see what comes my way. Thanks for your added views, they are very much appreciated. I am trying not to see things in just black and white and having to recognise (and be reminded) that there are many shades of grey also. Kind regards Gloria

Latest details from the birth certificate for my husband's grandfather................................he who can't quite make up his mind what he wanted to be known as.....................Lewis/Louis/Hugh/Severio Dunn???? Official information from the birth certificate is:- Registration district Goole Subdistrict Swinefleet Born 25 November 1865 at Whitgift HUGH, boy, Father Patrick Dunn, Agricultural Labourer Mother Mary Ann Dunn formally Follon Informant X mark of Mary Ann Dunn, Mother, Whitgift Registered 23 December 1865 Registrar signed by John Wilmot I had thought that there might have been a Lewis/Louis as a second Christian name..............but no, maybe that would have been too easy. The 'Severio', I think he was having a laugh..................at least it shows he had a sense of humour! This certificate brings the Hugh named as Father on Jack's marriage certificate back into the equation. I'm on a mission now to find the marriage between Patrick Dunn (or Dunne?) and Mary Ann Follon...................don't expect it will be straightforward, nothing else has been, BUT I am actually enjoying it all, especially as I am now able to add a few more twigs to the 'in-laws' family tree. Watch this space. Best wishes Gloria

Hello Chris Thanks for your interest. As you will have read this ongoing saga of Christian names for my husband's ancestors is really puzzling. I am still relatively new to this and so tend to see only what is black and white and I am trying to expand on the many grey areas that keep cropping up regularly. I am helped greatly by Laird Davison also a GR member who has given me many details and a great deal of encouragement. I had not thought of trying to search the Dunn surname with an 'e' but it is worth a try and I will bear this is mind in my future research, who knows what it might throw up? Thankyou very much for taking time to pass this thought on to me Kind regards and good luck with your own searching. Gloria

your PM prompted me to look .... understand what you say about Hugh above, but I stick to my reasoning that he is also Lewis/Louis/Severio !!! (I think ....) LOL - great work Gloria !

Hello Laird Have finally received the death certificate for Mary Dunn and Yes...................this is the one as her husband is Patrick! Details are:- 1880 Death registration district Goole, subdistrict of Goole in the County of York. 29 January 1880 at 15 Masons Terrace Hook, Mary Dunn, 47yrs, wife of Patrick Dunn, labourer cause of death Ovarian Disease and Dropsey. Certified by Wm Eden Cass, MRCS. X mark of Patrick Dunn, widower of deceased in attendance at 15 Masons Terrace, Hook, registered 30 January 1880. Signature of Wm Eden Cass (registrar) Clever man this Wm Eden Cass...............Master of Royal College of Surgeons AND a Registrar?? Now I am awaiting the next certificate for the birth of Louis/ Lewis Dunn and I can get the nee name for his Mum Mary Ann Dunn which will allow me then to find the marriage of Mary Ann ?/Patrick Dunn........................all 'good stuff' so watch this space. Best wishes Gloria

Hello Laird I have just posted off the request for the death certificate for Mary Dunn, March quarter 1880, Goole but if this lady has Patsy/Patrick Dunn as Husband. Have to wait and see what transpires from this. Remember on 21/03/05 you 'found'a Hugh Dunn(thinking it was Hugh/Lewis/LouisDunn) birth in 1865, Goole and also brother John Dunn birth 1868 plus a Mary Ann.............thinking that you had cracked the Hugh mystery? I have looked this up on the FreeBMD and this family show up on the 1881 Census with Mary Dunn, head, widow, of Farmer as Innkeeper and there is Thomas Dunn, 26yr, son, Farmer's son. Coincidence I think that this family of Dunn's have chosen to give their children the same Christian names as Patsy and Mary Ann. No Thomas Dunn in our lot though! A thought has now struck me that this lady may be the one I have just posted off the Mary Dunn death certificate for...............Dunn is a VERY COMMON name, isn't it? Still, it's on its way now to Pontefaract R/O and I'll have to wait and see what their reply is. Just checking out the scrawly writing on the marriage cert for Louis and Mary Jane Dunn and it is really difficult to be clear on the Louis' occupation, however, I have borrowed a magnifying glass from the library staff and we are in agreement that the word looks like 'Boat-hauler'. Hope you have understood all this? Best wishes Gloria

Hey - great progress ! Ref 1881 - looks right, I didnt spot the age or pob of Mary Ann - agree with you ! Satisfying aint it ! Kind regards, LD PS. the occupation on the marriage cert does in fact tie in with the 1891 census info ... (He is a ?boathandler? - but the wording is overwritten )

Hello Laird Hope that you have enjoyed your Easter Break. Working on the info that you found out for me earlier I have now received today the marriage certificate for Louis Dunn and Mary Jane Goulding married 21 March 1886 at Christ Church, Parish of Knottingley, County of York. Louis (spelled this way and SIGNED also be LOUIS DUNN while Mary Jane gave the X as her mark) Louis Dunn, 19, bachelor, boat haulier, Knottingley, father Patsy Dunn, labourer. Mary Jane Goulding, 19, spinster, Knotttingley, father William Goulding, boat haulier. My next move is to request the death certificate for Mary ?Ann Dunn 47,for March quarter 1880. I will request this only if husband is Patsy Dunn. This fits in with Mary Ann's year of birth as c 1833 So watch this space. Another thought from the 1881 Census was that the George and Mary Ann Gonland who Father Patrick was lodging with along with Lewis, John, Patrick Dunn could actually be Patsey's daughter and son-in-law. Mary Ann Gonland I think may well be daughter formally Mary Ann Dunn, (her year of birth fits in with her age on this Census)and as Mum had died in March 1800 then poor girl at only 18 looks to have taken on Dad and 3 brothers...................its a piece which could fit in the jigsaw puzzle .....................watch this space and I'll let you know if all your info relates to my 'Dunn' gang. No contact (as yet) from my Husband's cousin. Kind regards Gloria Dunn

Hello Laird I have been contacted by my husband's cousin who actually lives near to Knottingley. I have passed on the details of your message of 21/03/05 and asked if it is possible to check these out locally.......................I will let you know the outcome, which I guess will now be after the Bank Holiday weekend. Have a good Easter break and thankyou very much. Gloria

In case you didnt see the PM or email with the 1871 census image - yes, SEVERIO is the transcription result of looking at a flowery-written LEWIS ! Things go full circle - it looks like the HUGH on the marriage cert is somebodies family knowledge of the truth..... based on birth regns in Goole (reg district for the area the were in in 1871) .. Heres some births of Lewis' siblings I just looked up ... and a VERY INTERESTING THING is that no LEWIS or LOUIS shows up only a HUGH !! - ), with spot-on birth year (so maybe he was always registered as Hugh, but preferred Louis/Lewis in later life.... ) To put this to rest, recommend you order these certs online at the GRO with the Vol and Page and date info here. Website to order at:- http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ Surname First name(s) District Vol Page Births Dec 1865 --------------------------------------- Dunn Hugh Goole 9c 551 (this HAS to be your LEWIS) Births Mar 1868 -------------------------------------- DUNN John William Goole 9c 629 Births Mar 1864 --------------------------------------- DUNN Mary Ann Goole 9c 550 Sorry - no Patrick jnr there - would have been 1870...

Hello Laird Amazing, you have really been very busy on my behalf and I do appreciate all your time and effort. Am I reading this right.....................is Lewis 'Severio'?? I have requested a birth certificate for my Father- in law- Jack Dunn and I sent for this at the beginning of the week but it has not arrived yet. My sister in law has the original certificate and it is in tatters, but she has told me that Jack's Father is named as Lewis on this. I have a marriage certificate which gives Hugh as the Father of Jack Dunn. All very confusing but I went ahead and ordered the marriage with your details of a Louis Dunn and Mary Jane Goulding, March 1886 in Pontefract, where Jack was born. Thanks for everything. Bye for now. Gloria

Hi Gloria - corrected my faux pas for the 1881 family, and have updated comments generally in my last post .... have emailed the 1871 census image. Kind regards, LD

Dear Laird I am reading all the information that you have found out and in such a short time. It is fascinating reading THANKYOU. I know that Louis had a Father called Patsey Dunn who came from Ireland so he has shown up with this family in the 1891 Census in the Knottingley, West Riding area where my Father-in-law Jack Dunn was born and raised. Jack was the youngest child of this marriage of Louis/Lewis to Mary Jane and 10 children were born. I am waiting for a copy of the birth certificate to drop through my letterbox, hopefully in the morning and I can decide where to go in my searches. My in-laws say that Louis Dunn was married to a Mary Jane and that his Father was Patsey................is this Patrick do you think and that Patsey came from Ireland. This fits in with the 1891 census from Knottingley where Patsey Dunn 55 Father born Ireland was staying with Louis and Mary Jane. I will wait until I get Jack Dunns birth certificate which I am hoping will be in the morning, and if the parents are Louis Dunn and Mary Jane Dunn formally Goulding, then I need to send off to Pontefract Register Office and request a copy of their marriage certificate which will then give me Louis and Mary Janes Father. The 1881 England Census I don't think is 'my' Louis Dunn with a Father named as John Dunn born in Bradford these details don't fit in at all. I would like a copy of the image for 1891 if you wouldn't mind? Many thanks for your time, I really do appreciate it. Gloria

Bingo - heres the 'Louis' Dunn I found in 1891, family has grown a bit ! these mistranscriptions are a pain.... and spelling NOW LEWIS. Update 19Mar2005: also pob is Whitgift - but the kids are correct .... and agrees with pob in 1881 corrected (below) He is a ?boathandler? - but the wording is overwritten - BUT 3 other people on the page are GLASS BLOWERS/BOTTLEMAKERS/SORTERS - obviously all work in the same place and the enumerator 'blew' it !!! Image saved if you need it Doesnt explain Hugh on marriage cert .... but its a start given ages and the place .. 1901 England Census Viewing records 1-10 of 10 matches Name Age in 1901 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ada Duron 8 months Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Daughter Knottingley Yorkshire Elizabeth Duron 2 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Daughter Knottingley Yorkshire George Duron 11 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Son Knottingley Yorkshire Joseph Duron 4 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Son Knottingley Yorkshire ->Lewis Duron 34 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Head Knottingley Yorkshire Mary J Duron 9 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Daughter Knottingley Yorkshire Mary T Duron 34 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Wife Knottingley Yorkshire Rose Duron 6 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Daughter Knottingley Yorkshire Sarah A Duron 12 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Daughter Knottingley Yorkshire William Duron 7 Knottingley, Yorkshire, England Son Knottingley Yorkshire Update 19Mar2005: ---------------------- Here he is - a lodger in 1881 - is PATRICK the Patsey in 1891 ? Think so - see 1871. HOOK is at the top of the Humber estuary - J36/37 of M62 today - ie, a little east of Knottingley, which is J33. Based on family in 1871, these chaps were away from home on a job, lodging with the Gonlands. Didnt save this image. Deaths Mar 1880 Dunn Mary 47 Goole 9c 461 Given I cant find Mary A - either mother or daughter in 1881 - this death might explain why the chaps are all together (the daur may be in service) Address: 4 Mapplebecks Buildings Civil parish: Hook County/Island: Yorkshire Condition as to marriage: Unknown Occupation: Labourer 1881 England Census Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Residence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn abt 1866 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Lodger Hook Lewis Dunn abt 1865 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Lodger Hook Patrick Dunn abt 1831 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Lodger Hook Patrick Dunn abt 1871 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Lodger Hook George Gonland abt 1858 Doncaster, Yorkshire, England Head Hook Mary Ann Gonland abt 1863 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Wife Hook This 1871 clinches it - Patrick is the father, LEWIS aka SEVERIO (lol, the image is clear - I've sent it you) the eldest bro, then John and then Patrick jnr - also sister Mary A(nn). IF YOU ARE REALLY LUCKY, we MIGHT find a marriage next - based on kids ages, and see what Mary A's maiden name was ..... BUT the 1860s are bad news for marriages in FreeBMD/Ancestry) (I doubt the old lady of 83, is Mum-in-law, but you never know ... Mary A says she was born in Lancs ...) 1871 England Census Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County ---------------------------------------------------------------------- John Dunn 3 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Son Whitgift Yorkshire Mary A Dunn 37 Stockport, Lancashire, England Wife Whitgift Yorkshire Mary A Dunn 7 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Daughter Whitgift Yorkshire Patrick Dunn 39 Ireland Head Whitgift Yorkshire Patsey Dunn 1 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Son Whitgift Yorkshire ->Severio Dunn 5 Whitgift, Yorkshire, England Son Whitgift Yorkshire Sarah Rames 83 Ousefleet, Yorkshire, England Head Whitgift Yorkshire PS. Given the births in reg district Goole - it looks like Lewis was named Hugh at birth .... then Lewis was used by his parents and later himself.

Given the wifes name on the 1891 census - this is the marriage.................... Marriages Mar 1886 DUNN Louis Pontefract 9c 117 Goulding Mary Jane Pontefract 9c 117

1891 - Louis vs Lewis - and IN Knottingley .... no show in 1901 as yet tho:- 1891 England Census Viewing records 1-6 of 6 matches for: Dunn with Knottingley in England Name Age in 1891 Birthplace Relationship to head-of-house Civil parish County --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dunn, George 1 Knottingley, Yorkshire Son Knottingley Yorkshire Dunn, Kate 25 Knottingley, Yorkshire Sister-in-law Sutton [with Stoneferry] Yorkshire Dunn, Louis 24 Knottingley, Yorkshire Head Knottingley Yorkshire Dunn, Mary Jane 24 Knottingley, Yorkshire Wife Knottingley Yorkshire Dunn, Patsey 55 Ireland Father Knottingley Yorkshire Dunn, Sarah Ann 3 Knottingley, Yorkshire Daughter Knottingley Yorkshire

Jack was born 13 January 1909 in Knottingley, West Yorkshire (youngest of a family of 10) and his Father is Lewis Dunn on the certificate. Jack married in St James Church, Selby on 31 March 1934 to Hannah Mary nee Milner - Hugh Dunn, occupation 'Glass Hand' is on this marriage certificate, named as Jack's Father. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1901 census - LEWIS Dunns born anywhere, resident anywhere (theres 8 years to go before Jacks birth and parents could have moved to Yorkshire); I've highlighted candidates based on age and fact that Jack born 1909 was youngest of 10 kids... Name Age in 1901 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County --------------------------------------------------------------------- George Lewis Dunn 28 Oxfordshire, England Head St Aldate Oxfordshire Lewis Dunn 49 Deal, Kent, England Head Dover Kent ->7 kids already->Lewis Dunn 44 Crumpsall, Lancashire, England Head Blackley Lancashire Lewis Dunn 20 Manchester, Lancashire, England Son Blackley Lancashire Lewis Dunn 1 Fulham, London, England Son Fulham London ->No kids->Lewis Dunn 49 Kensington Head Kensington London Lewis Dunn 8 Kensington, London, England Son Kensington London ->No kids->Lewis Dunn 30 Farron on Tyne, Durham, England Head Heaton Northumberland Lewis Dunn 11 months Mayfield, Sussex, England Son Mayfield Sussex Lewis Dunn 16 Kidderminster, Worcestershire, England Son Kidderminster Worcestershire Lewis A Dunn 71 York, Yorkshire, England Head Broughton Lancashire ->Only 2 kids->Lewis J Dunn 29 Tregantle, Cornwall, England Head Lambeth London Scott Lewis Dunn 50 Eighton Banks, Durham, England Head Lamesley Durham 1901 census - HUGH Dunns born anywhere, resident anywhere; I've highlighted candidates again ... Hugh Dunn 18 Cleator, Cumberland, England Son Cleator Cumberland NO->Hugh Dunn 35 Ireland Head Workington Cumberland Hugh Dunn 12 Gateshead, Durham, England Son Gateshead Durham Hugh Dunn 5 Gateshead, Durham, England Grandson Usworth Durham ->4 kids already->Hugh Dunn 36 Aveley, Essex, England Head Barking Essex Hugh Dunn 5 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Kirkdale Lancashire NO->Hugh Dunn 39 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Lancaster Lancashire Hugh Dunn 5 Lancaster, Lancashire, England Son Lancaster Lancashire Hugh Dunn 43 Ireland Head Toxteth Park Lancashire NO->Hugh Dunn 30 Ireland Head West Derby Lancashire Hugh Dunn 11 Wigan, Lancashire, England Son Wigan Lancashire Hugh Dunn 22 Lome Regis, Dorset, England Boarder Streatham London Hugh Dunn 4 St Anthonys Newcastle, Northumberland, England Son Byker Northumberland NO->Hugh Dunn 33 Huntington, Yorkshire, England Son Wilberfoss Yorkshire Hugh C Dunn 15 Bromley, Kent, England Pupil Ardingley Sussex Hugh H Dunn 24 Lye, Worcestershire, England Son Wollescote Worcestershire Hugh M Dunn 28 Ireland Boarder Moss Side Lancashire Hugh W Dunn 57 Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, England Son Brighton Sussex Have to go out for a while - maybe some other researchers could have a look at this ?

I've had this happen a few times. I've usually found that the birth cert is correct. Quite often the fathers are dead at the time of their children's marriage (even though the cert doesn't say dec'd). I think if the father had been dead for some years they sometimes just had a stab at the name ie: 'oldest brother is George, dad must have been too', or 'Uncle Frank was as good as a father so we'll put him'! They often swapped first and second names round too. Several of my rellies couldn't read or write, so wouldn't have had access to any written records. 'Course they could have just done it to annoy! Heather