Genealogy Chat

Just wanted to share my latest findings with people who won't tune out as soon as I mention my family tree! I have now laid my hands on a newspaper article announcing the retirement of Thomas Collins (the minister son). It says 'Mr Collins, who was a native of Glasgow, spent his early years in the office of his brother, who owned the Elliot Street Engine Works' So this would have been before 1868 when he went to university. From 1861 census with Thomas & Rebecca are 3 sons. William 20 steward on steamboat Henry 18 calender (my gggrandad who became a ships boilermaker) Thomas 13 calender (who became a minister) I have looked at all the Williams on scotlandspeople but the only likely one is a shoemaker and anyway he seems too young so I think there must have been an older brother. I have spent all morning googling Elliot Street/Engine Works/Collins combinations but have found nothing useful. At least it might explain why their father Thomas switched from being a shoemaker to an Engineer! Well, it's something. Thankyou for listening Lyla

Janet That is fantastic. Thank you so much for all the help and advice you have given me. This will keep me busy for quite some time! I've got lots of new ideas and angles to try thanks to this thread and will certainly come back to gloat when I find him (and I will!). I'm so excited today because I heard back from the current Minister of the church where Thomas's son was the Minister for 30 years. He said he is still remembered there and an honoured part of their history! He is going to send me some pages from a book that mentions him. What a brilliant day! Lyla

Lyla I did say that I would look at my Mags to see if I could find the lists of Chelsea Pensioners I remembered seeing in an FHS mag. There was a list of Chelsea Pensioners 1810-1824 in the Magazine 'Family Tree Magazine' December 2004 and January 2005. (Parts 1 and 2) Idid look at the list but could not find any Collins. You can obtain past copies of these mags but as there are no Collins in the list you may not be interested. There are many Irishmen on the lists. The following websites in case you have not got them were also highlighted in the same mags. These are: www(.)chelsea(-)pensioners(.)co(.)uk(/)home(.)htm (The Royal Hospital Chelsea) www(.)24hourmuseum(.)org(.)uk(/)museum(_)gfx(_)en(/)AM16862(.)html (The Royal Hospital Chelsea Museum, with details of their collection) www(.)rhk(.)ie(/)index(-)2(.)html (The equivalent Irish Chelsea Pensioners Site at Kilmainham in Dublin) (Remove brackets) The Kilmainham hospital in Dublin still stands but it is now a conference centre and the records have been transferred to Kew. He may have been pensioned to Kilmainham and not Chelsea, and this may well be worth researching at Kew, as the Kilmainham Records are now at Kew. You could probably try PROCAT to see if the Kilmainham Records have been kept separately from the Chelsea Records. I think the records were transferred to the UK around 1920 but you will need to check that out through the Kilmainham site. Kilmainham Hospital Dublin was also founded in the reign of Charles 2 as was Chelsea and paid pensions to many discharged British Soldiers in its own right (Remember British in this instance at this time includes Irishmen) Hope this is of some use to you. Janet

Thanks Sarah, What a brilliant site! I can see what you mean about navigation and it might take me a while to find anything useful but even if I don't its still very interesting. Thanks very much. Lyla

Hi Lyla, not sure if this is of any use, but I have found this site invaluable in getting my head around different regiments etc. It takes some navigating, but is worth it once you get it right! It helped me track my illusive chealsea pensioner, and the records I got were pretty good. It also mentions two 32 regiments: 32nd (Cornwall) Regiment of Foot 1702-1881 32nd Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794-1796 http://www*regiments*org/regiments/uk/lists/bargxrefn*htm Replace * with . Hope this is of some use, good luck. Sarah

Heather, anything is possible with this man. I have been typing this from memory as I was at work today. The only mistake I made was 1874 wife's death - sometime marine engineer 1879 death - mechanical engineer (master) Doesn't really change anything does it? Unless the marine part was just a hobby. Lyla

Hi Jan Last year I went through every regiment on Procat (it took days) and printed off every Thomas Collins that was born in Ireland and in the right time frame. I didn't know or maybe you couldnt search by name then. I shortlisted 15 possibles and looked at a couple of them at Kew but none of the records gave any useful clues. Someone suggested I go through the pension books for Glasgow and I found the one Thomas Collins who could well be mine so I went back to the regiment given and he wasnt there. I think I need to give myself more time when I can get to Kew again and look at each record more thoroughly. Thanks for your input. Lyla

Actually, not wanting to throw a spanner in the works re engineers in the army but I have a long distant ancestor who was known as an engineer in the army in the 17th century - he studied the canals of Holland and helped design the canals in Liverpool. Would this be a likely sort of job for your guy?

Hi - Quite often you won't find the man's name using Procat and you just need the regiment to put into the search engine and the approx date of discharge and the initial for the surname will then give you the relevant documents- his papers could then be in that box/film. When are you at Kew - I'm there in early August. Jan

Heather, you are alway a great help and believe me any ideas are most welcome as I may not have thought of them and they may give me new ideas. Janet, thanks again. You have given me so much more to think about and I will contact the Mtichell library about shoemakers. The family appear to have been members of the Free Church of Scotland. I think speculation and illimination is the only way forward. I have about 15 Thomas Collins Chelsea Pensioners born Ireland to rule out and yet he might not even have been one. I have also seen an IGI baptism of a Sarah Hughes in Monaghan which would fit. Maybe the Thomas who transferred from there to Paisley had been married to her? Thanks everyone for all your thoughts they really are very helpful. I will let you know if I ever do crack this one. Lyla

Lyla Yes the certs for Scotland are later than English ones. Remember that Parish Records will mainly be Baptisms, not Births and that people can be baptised years after their birth, but Catholics were most likely to be baptised straight away so assuming his baptism is correct at 1806, it is improbable that he entered the army before 1818 age 12, although at this time boys were hard at work as labourers and other jobs age 10, but he would need to look a teenager at least, so even if he went in age 10 that would still be 1816 and the Battle of Waterloo was 1815 so would have missed that battle. However if his age is wrong and he was baptised earlier then maybe a look at the casualty lists for the Battle of Waterloo may be worth a look. These are online with a google search. There were no other major battles that I can think of until 1854 and the Crimea War, but if he was a member of the British Army in Ireland he may have been involved with the skirmishes that went on around 1848 in Tipperary and Cork. Many soldiers were injured at these times. Do you knbow if he was a Catholic or Protestant? Catholic Irish Records are not really around before 1794 whereas Protestant Records do go from the 1600's. However the good news is that most Catholic records survive in the various parishes, but the bad news is that many Protestant records did not suvive the 1922 problems. Have you thought that the Thomas Collins of 1808-1818 may be a relative of your Thomas Collins? However you are entering the realms of speculation, but maybe you can prove the theory right or wrong and either way could be positive. I have started with speculations which have turned out to be incorrect but that can be positive. To be entitled to be a Chelsea Pensioner he would have to have served so many years service and be injured somewhere. Somewhere I have seen a list of Chelsea Pensioners for this period, one of the Family History Mags a couple of years ago. I will check through my past copies to see if I can find it. Shoemakers were apprenticed and there is often an indenture for these, so maybe you can check this out. Northampton Museum has the most complete list of shoemakers indentures for not only Northamptonshire but also for other areas though this may not include Scotland. Try ringing the Mitchell Library in Glasgow to see where you might find Shoemakers Indentures in that area. Again, if you do not want to spend too much money then wait until you can do the work yourself in Scotland. Scotlands People can be expensive, but can give you leads which can be followed up at a later date during a holiday in Scotland. I have done a lot of research in Scotland this way, visiting the nearest big libraries for the parish records for my Scottish Ancestors and by doing the work myself over 20+ years have minimised the expense. Good Luck Janet

Well I defer to your greater military and Irish knowledge! I had to get someone to look up my Grandfather at Kew, so Im not a lot of help Lyla!

Heather, Ian and Janet Thank you so much for taking an interest in this, your comments are really helpful. I did look at the regimental indexes and could not find the marriage to his first wife or a likely baptism for any of the 3 children. Before I found the 1861 census I had assumed the children were born in Glasgow as this is what they stated on all their censuses however their births are not registered in Scotland. I have spent a fortune on Scotlandspeople looking for them and years ago my mum paid a researcher to do the same. Before about 1855 there are no full marriage certificates in Scotland so that's no help and the reason why I bought the banns in desperation. Finding the family in 1861 put a new lease of life in my research as I now had a possible reason why I could not find anything in Scotland- perhaps they were born in Ireland. I also thought the fact that he was a Chelsea pensioner would help - clearly not. I cannot explain the changes in profession but I’m certain it’s the same man. On son Henry's marriage he is a shoemaker and the mother is Sarah Hughes. On Thomases death cert he is a marine engineer and first wife is Sarah Hughes, second wife Rebecca Boyd. In 1861 he is married to a Rebecca and the two sons I have been able to trace are the right age. I have the banns for his marriage to Rebecca Boyd in 1854. I really have no idea how to find out where in Ireland they came from and as you say the census could also be wrong. Lyla

Heather, Not to wander too far from Lyla's original request, but I think you will find the various branches of the military were more defined in the 1800's than they are today. Remember, there were no petrol engines at this time, and only steam power in its infancy. The army used man and horsepower, and the Royal Engineers were involved in building bridges and fortifications. Small boats if used by the army would have been rowing boats, and sea going military vessels were the province of the Royal Navy. Don't think of the Royal Engineers of that period as men tinkering with motors! If he was a master engineer then that would have been his trade and would have shown up on earlier census returns, and not a shoemaker. Also in his mid 60's he would not lilkely have suddenly qualified as an engineer. If he was a Chelsea Pensioner then it implies that he had retired from the army and was receiving a pension. I can only speculate, but if all these census and certificate entries are indeed for the same man, then I might guess that someone has been 'adjusting' the truth of his status. Ian

Lyla I have considerable experience researching in Ireland. It is not impossible, but very difficult and I agree you MUST find out where in Ireland these children are being born. However, there are some things you can look at first and going to Kew to research without further information is not one that I would suggest to you at this tme and this is with much personal experience of research in Kew. I challenged you earlier as felt that that may be one way to find out more for yourself before your next visit to Kew You seem to be sure these children are born in Ireland. Next question is: Have you looked at the Regimental Indexes? My own ancestor married in Ireland and had one of his children born there and until I found them in the Regimental Indexes I was totally lost as to how to access his papers at Kew. Once I had found them then everything slipped into place. But even then he changed regiments so it still may not be all plain sailing. The banns for which you appeared to have paid a lot of money are rather useless for the sort of info you require as you have now found out. Banns are useful to have in their own right, but not as substitutes for the actual certificate which gives you fathers' names, occupations etc You must have the actual Marriage Cert as this will give you a regiment provided he either married within the army or was still in the army when he married the second time. The cost for Marriage cert is £7. A death cert may also help, as one other army ancestor I was researching had his regiment recorded on the Death Cert after I had spent much time in Kew searching for him without this knowledge. You say he was born in Ireland, do you know where or when? If you do not know where or when how do you know he was born in Ireland? Is this just census info you are looking at? Have you researched all the census yourself until his death or relying on others to give you the info? The only info I had for one Irish ancestor on all census was Fermoy, Ireland which without the Townland was not very helpful when I came to trace in Dublin, but on the 1901 Census I did have the actual Townland which has made the possibility of tracing now much easier, so maybe with you, the County/Barony/Townland may be on one census but not on others? If you have some idea of area in Ireland try looking at the Griffiths or Tithe Aplotments or both to pinpoint a Townland. It takes time but can be done. I know I have done it Hope this is of some help. Janet

Ian, I guess we need PeterWalker on this one. But I think it would be possible to be in the army and be a marine engineer, especially at that time when things werent quite so defined. I know that nowdays you can join the army but actually work on ships - eg. landing craft etc. But I still wonder if one of the sons had vague memories of dad being an engineer and decided to upgrade it a bit? A MASTER engineer would imply he employed or trained others? Either way Lyla if he was a mechanic before joining up, then he would have served an apprenticeship? And if the marine bit is right, then you would likely be looking at the big Irish Port areas?

Thanks Janet, Unfortunately I only have the marriage banns for his second marriage in Glasgow 1854 which costed £10 and told me nothing. According to the 1861 census the three children were all born in Ireland. Without knowing where in Ireland it is impossible to find out more details. I have been unable to find them in the 1851 census for Glasgow nor a death of the first wife. I had thought the Chelsea Pensioner angle might help me find out where they came from but it seems to be a catch 22 situation. So, the brick wall remains standing :C

Whilst it is correct to say that you had to be 30 to get married within the army at this time of the 1800's, many many young men joined the army at very young ages, some as young as 14, so they may only have been 26 on marriage, so this area does need careful consideration. It is also unlikely that someone joining the army would end up as a Marine Engineer as the two are totally different, one army and one navy, but marriage and birth certs and maybe death certs, will give you all these facts. Without the first marriage record, which will give you his regiment it will be like looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack. A shoemaker back in the 1800's operated under the most terrible conditions and many did not survive the conditions into middle age, never mind old age. Lyla You have not said where he married or when with regard to his first marriage, which is most likely to be where you will find the information you require? How many children did he have whilst in the army and married to his first wife and where and when were they born? If you think he married in Ireland then a search through the Regimental indexes on both 1837 Online or the Regimental Indexes in London at the FRC will provide you with that information. If he is not in those registers, then the likelihood of him marrying, or having children whilst in the army is doubtful. I have found all my army births and marriages this way, including those in Ireland. When he left the army, the rest of his children are registered in the normal way through the 1837 registers. Heather, So you do not think that I have considerable experience!! Janet

Heather Thank you so much for looking with a fresh pair of eyes. I think you are probably right. Perhaps he was an engineer in the army ? Thomas married his second wife in Glasgow in 1854 but they had no further children. I can’t find a death for the first wife in Scotland so I have to assume for now that she died in Ireland. The boy who studied at uni was an older student training to be a minister. Ian Thanks for that. To be honest I didn’t know that Chelsea pensioners were only army. Since there is only the one reference to Chelsea Pensioner I guess there is always a chance there was a mistake or he was lying on that census. His other son and his son’s son were boilermakers working on ships so perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree completely! Lyla PS I still don’t understand how without a regiment it is possible to find the war records of a man with a very common surname, born in Ireland and only an approximate date of birth.

Lyla, The conflict is more in the Chelsea Pensioner versus Marine Engineer. I thought Chelsea Pensioners were ex-army, whereas a Marine Engineer sounds more like a sailor? Are you sure there are not two different men with the same names/similar ages? If he served in the army then his army service records will be held at Kew. That I guess is where you will find out more of his background. Ian