Genealogy Chat

I agree with Grampa Jim - sometimes the genealogical gods are just smiling on you. As all of my relatives (and hubby's) without exception are Scottish, its much esier for me than for most of you. But today - I found my 5 x Great Grandfathers death cert - he died in 1877, aged 102 and 10 months! Bless him for hanging on well into civil registration (1855 in Scotland). He was actually 101 and ten months, but I'll forgive his son his minor miscalculation in this case! This cert now confirms all my guesstimates as to his parents and dob etc, so I'm now confident enough to add him and his parents to my tree. This takes me back to his mother's birth in 1737. One of the great benefits of Scottish records is that we can download all images (post 1855) from scotlandspeople, instantly and at a fraction of the cost of English/Welsh. Pre 1855, like everyone else, we have to consult OPRs. From finding his cert, it led me to the death certs of two of his siblings, who also lived to great ages, and confirms all the possible family I have pencilled in. The 1841 census on freecen then gives me further info on where they were living and their families, so it all begins to pad out quite nicely. I wish you the very best of luck in your research. Ellen.

Olde Crone (seems very rude calling you that!!) Thanks very much for your reply. I have only been looking for 6 months and feel that I have done quite well so far. BUT there is so much that I do not know anything about at all, the documents you mentioned for a start and A2A have never tried this site. Ancestry UK and a few others seem to be the main ones I use. I read all the tips on here and try to digest all the information, but there is so much and my brain is not what it used to be! Are there any books you would recommend I should read to move forward and give me a better understanding of what is out there, or is it a case of just asking questions of the lovely people on this site to point me in the right direction. Jojo

Robyne, I was stuck with my great grandfather for some years. Then, while on a Genealogical Holiday, I got a boost through the 1861 Census which directed me to Worton in Wensleydale. The next day I presented myself at Northallerton Records Office and asked to see the Parish Registers for that area. I wrote down every reference to any spelling of my Surname, and, by that evening I had gathered enough information to take me back to 1676. Since then that line has barely moved. It is just an example of how far & fast you can get back if the Gods are smiling on your efforts.

Jojo In answer to your question - it depends!! Generally, B/S/R Orders ARE held in County Records offices, but not always. Example: A2A lists a newly catalogued item this month from Blackburn St Mary the Virgin (Blackburn Cathedral). In this document, listed by names, are details of B/S/Rs which came under their jurisdiction. (Don't forget, in times gone by, the Ecclesiastical Authorities were far more powerful than the Civil Law and Administration and were in fact responsible for administering the Poor Laws)) Several of my indirect ancestors appear in this document and I had not seen this information before. The Blackburn Diocese hold these documents and you have to apply to them if you want to see them. Suggest you go to A2A (a pig of a site to search, until you get the hang of it) type in your ancestors names (with all possible spelling variations, there is no Soundex), choose the area they lived in and see what you come up with. If that fails, then I usually search by the name of the village/town, again varying the spellings. If you get stuck, PM me and I will look for you - I LOVE THAT SITE!!!! Oh, and don't forget your humble Local Archives Centre everybody - mine has some incredible stuff which hasnt yet been indexed on line, including a run of 80 years Chapel Magazines from 1800s, giving lengthy descriptions of Births, Marriages, Deaths, 'letters from abroad', gossipy doings of the members of the Chapel etc. - will be a goldmine for someone, somewhere, if they just LOOK for it. I totally agree with Brenda - even 20 years ago, research was hampered because people did not have access to all this information. Sometimes they only got half the story because they only found one document where there are now two. I cannot remember offhand how many documents there are in TNA, but I know its millions. Add to that the millions indexed on A2A, and you have an awful lot of places to look, folks, before you can say 'no one can possibly get back that far' Olde Crone

Well, you can rest on your hams and believe what is written in books and not bother to do any more research. Do bear in mind that the mid 16th century is the 1550s. Do also bear in mind that Mark Herber wrote his book several years ago and although it is extremely fat, some of his examples are lifted straight out of other people's research. Some documents may not have been particularly accessible in the past. Problems are often not so much that they do not exist but that the local record office has not had the funds to catalogue them adequately. Online catalogues are revealing all sorts of useful documents, often in unexpected places. Research projects have revealed that in the 1500s, virtually everyone made a will. Why? Church courts. The parish priest, by the bedside, making sure that the penny was left 'for tithes forgotten'. Of course not everything survives, but if an area is poor in one sort of document, it is likely to be rich in another.

No, I don't like guessing either and that is why I use sources other than BMDs. the more evidence I get for one person, the happier I am. Unrecorded movements between Parishes? Practically impossible until the early 19th century. You could not travel freely between Parishes unless you had a Settlement Certificate from your Parish of Origin (usually, but not always, your Parish of Birth). People travelling in this way through Parishes, were recorded in their movements by the Poor Law Officer (usually the Constable). And as most 'ordinary' people tended to stay put for generations, it is only an individual problem, not a general one. I accept that not everyone can have a full and perfect tree - I certainly haven't - but on two lines, they obligingly stayed put for centuries, farming the same (small) farms. Perhaps we are forgetting Robyne's original question - Robyne, what are you stuck on, and why? Lets see if we can help you. Olde Crone

My ancestors from one string of my family, were ordinary but were made freemen so it was possible to trace back to 1590. Other strings of the family not so easy and lost in 1890! Old Crone - are the Settlement Orders, Removal Orders, Bastardy Orders, Petty Sessions Offences, Parish Poor Relief, Apprenticeship papers held in the local records office? Jo

There is more to genealogy than seeing how far back you can go. I like to find the social history of some of the people I have found, how they lived, where they worked and how they died, it is much more interesting and I have found some really interesting characters. It is much more satisfying than trying to get further back than anyone else. Mary

I tend to agree with Robert. I don't know how its possible to go as far back as some people say they have. My family come from a wide area, Scotland, Ireland, Spain and England. All thoes back to GGrandfather on three branches I have found some data for, mostly in England. Forget the Irish and Spanish, no luck there at all. I have managed to go back to middle 1800's with a lot of trouble. I do like to have full confirmation before I accept they are mine. No point in guessing, d.o.b or d.o.d, when they may be nothing to do with you. Ann

I don't deny these records exist or can get some people back further than others but to suggest they will apply to nearly everyone just ain't true. 'The main source of information is parish registers and, with luck you can trace your family tree back to the16th or 17th century, However, missing registers,unrecorded movements of people between parishes etc. may bring you to a halt' 'for the period before the mid 16th century it is very difficult to progress further unless you find a link with a family that held property or title, or which otherwise merited entry on the relatively few records available' Mark Herber, Ancestral Trails Bob

Hi As I work all week and weekend, I try to go the records office when I have some time off, or one of my other past times is Graveyards espeically as I have some ancestors buried in Liverpool and Ive been quite lucky. I have got back to 1693 on the Harrison side which has been 1 big enjoyable headache. Happy Hunting everyone. Regards Yvonne

Well said, Olde Crone! Happy Hunting MMM

Robert Sorry, but I cannot leave it at that. I am surprised to hear you call Settlement Orders, Bastardy Orders and Removal Orders 'specialised sources'. They are so common that there can hardly be a family in the land that doesnt have at least one of these. Yorkshire, in particular, has a stupendous amount of stuff going back for centuries. Not just for the rich and famous, but for the middle-class (who made Wills, bought houses, paid rent, ran businesses, entered into Marriage Agreements, ;paid Window Tax, Hearth Tax, paid tithes to the Church, subscribed to Church expenses, paid rates, got involved in law-suits - its literally endless). The extremely poor are also very well documented - Settlement Orders, Removal Orders, Bastardy Orders, Petty Sessions Offences, Parish Poor Relief, Apprenticeship papers.Even the humblest ag lab got paid a wage and may appear in the Accounts of an Estate. I maintain that in theory and with luck, you can get even the most humble family back a very long way, without relying on BMDs butI have trawled literally dozens of Parish Registers for Lancashire and have so far, only come across one which was 'incomplete' - in fact, on viewing the film, the missing years were actually there. I wrote and informed the Lancashire Records Office of this surprising fact, got a fulsome apology and they have now amended their catalogue. I would also point out that Yorkshire in particular had an interest in recording everyone in some way or other, as they came in for the Dibs if a resident died intestate, and the Archdeaconry Records are vast and cover centuries. For me, Births Marriages and Deaths are only a STARTING point. I have seven possible candidates to be my 3 x GGF, all from the same small village, all with the same name, all with a wife called Margaret. As I said before, the only way I can untangle this lot is by going sideways, trying to pin them down to a certain place with a certain family group. I havent completely succeeded yet, but its coming along, and I am nearer the truth than I was with just the Parish Register to play with. Try some of these non-BMD sources for yourself - I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Good luck Olde Crone

It helps to be near to the local record office for a line. But most of all the sharing of data and the assistance from people on here has been critical.

There are no guarantees, as we can't choose our ancestors. There are some families where the surnames are just too common and all the men are called William and the women Mary. All of us will have brickwalls that are never going to be broken because the records simply don't exist, but there is a huge wealth of records besides parish registers. I know precisely where one of my very ordinary ancestors was living in 1724, because the vicar kept a visiting book, listing every household in the village. A more up-market family took their quarrels to court, so I have a tudor description of what happened on a young man's wedding day. Manorial records are a fantastic source: you can follow the inheritance of property through a family. Poor law records can help distinguish between several men of the same name. The problem is pre 1837, that you can't knock up a tree in a couple of evenings. By this time next week, I should have seen a box of documents, mentioned on A2A. I've been looking forwards to this for the better part of a year. Other research has been on hold for rather longer. Meanwhile, I chip away, looking at whatever I can get my hands on. (And I have just the same problem with Durham: I spent three years in college there, got my tutor to provide a reference to get my PRO ticket, and never realised there were distant cousins in the area)

I think Robert is right in his comments. When I started my research some 20 years ago, I was told by many local historians and people from Family History societies, that I would probably get back to about 1745. knowing that what I found was correct but before then was pure guess work. and over the years, I have found this to be true. You can have 5 families in one village with the same name and all their off springs being given the name of their grandfather, I don't add anything to my tree if I am not sure it is the right name. Mary

Just to sit on the fence here, it is possible to do a good research job so long as you have a questioning mind. My approach when I find who I think is an ancestor, is to try to disprove my theory by looking for alternatives. When things seem to glue together and I've ruled out all of the alternatives (and ideally have my argument strengthened by another source) then I go forward with that person. Robert does make a good point. Just because they have the right surname, sometimes even with the right forename too and from the same village does not necessarily make them your ancestor. For instance, the records for your ancestor may be missing and so you jump on this person instead. It's this incompleteness that makes me doubt some of my assumptions. In my case, I've been searching for a John Jones in Llandyrnog, a small village in north Wales. Suffice to say the village is full of John Joneses so pretty hopeless. Hopefully you have some unusual surnames to work with. Sure makes life alot easier. Don't be disheartened, you should be able to get back to the late 1700s with near certainty. From there, you take a reasoned approach on whether the records make sense. Happy searching!!! Jonathan

Olde Crone No, I am not being defeatist, the vast majority of our ancestors are not covered by these more unusual sources. Before and after 1837 most of them will have been baptised married and buried and if we are lucky it might have been recorded. Period. Bob

because of wonderful people on here that really are so helpful I have just tonight been given some fantastic stuff and it will help me get further still thanks to all you lovely people

Olde Crone - ''Happy Hunting'' has a copyright - MINE lol Happy Hunting MMM