Genealogy Chat

After spending day and night for five weeks compiling the Green tree, today I received the vital confirmation that my research has been correct, in the shape of a marriage cert for my 2 x Gps, Thomas Green to Mary Trafford. Except - I GOT HIS FATHER WRONG!!! Before I write my suicide note, can you please look at the follwoing and tell me where to go next? FACT - in 1861, my Thomas Green, born abt 1835 Gawsworth Cheshire, is at home at Mollards Farm with his wife Mary and their two small children. This is correct and I have them all from that date forward. Also in the household (of which Thomas is the Head) is William, his brother and Ann Green, his mother, born c 1796 Birmingham. I don't have her marital status from that census. FACT. Ann Green and her husband, William Green are confirmed as the parents of William Jnr - I have Wm jnr's baptism and also seven other children - but I have NOT found the baptism of Thomas Green. (All the other children were baptised at St James, Gawsworth - I have seen the Parish Register myself) Scenarios - 1. Thomas is the son of the lawfully wedded John Green and Unknown. I have found no baptism to support this fact, nor the wedding of any John Green. And why is he therefore calling ANN Green his mother in 1861? 2. Thomas is the illegitimate son of John Green and god knows who. If so, how does he come to be in the family of William and Ann Green? 3. Thomas is the illegitimate son of William and Anne's eldest daughter, Ellenor - she would have been barely 14 at this event. No such baptism found, unless she was sent far away in her disgrace. 4. Mrs Ann Green, wife of William, threw her bonnet over the windmill at the age of 41 and had a fling with her brother-in-law, John Green. Her saintly husband forgave her, and they went on to have two more children in celebration. Doesnt convince even me. Cheshire seems to be very light on Bastardy Orders, so that's been no help. Your ideas will be most welcome. Does anyone want a tree complete with 179 names on it? Olde Crone

Hello! this halfwit can't cope with GR's wondrous idea that the first paragraph of a thread can usefully be condensed into a big lump. I hope you'll forgive me spreading it out... Halfwit needs guidance. After spending day and night for five weeks compiling the Green tree, today I received the vital confirmation that my research has been correct, in the shape of a marriage cert for my 2 x Gps, Thomas Green to Mary Trafford. Except - I GOT HIS FATHER WRONG!!! Before I write my suicide note, can you please look at the follwoing and tell me where to go next? FACT - in 1861, my Thomas Green, born abt 1835 Gawsworth Cheshire, is at home at Mollards Farm with his wife Mary and their two small children. This is correct and I have them all from that date forward. Also in the household (of which Thomas is the Head) is William, his brother and Ann Green, his mother, born c 1796 Birmingham. I don't have her marital status from that census. FACT. Ann Green and her husband, William Green are confirmed as the parents of William Jnr - I have Wm jnr's baptism and also seven other children - but I have NOT found the baptism of Thomas Green. (All the other children were baptised at St James, Gawsworth - I have seen the Parish Register myself) Scenarios - 1. Thomas is the son of the lawfully wedded John Green and Unknown. I have found no baptism to support this fact, nor the wedding of any John Green. And why is he therefore calling ANN Green his mother in 1861? 2. Thomas is the illegitimate son of John Green and god knows who. If so, how does he come to be in the family of William and Ann Green? 3. Thomas is the illegitimate son of William and Anne's eldest daughter, Ellenor - she would have been barely 14 at this event. No such baptism found, unless she was sent far away in her disgrace. 4. Mrs Ann Green, wife of William, threw her bonnet over the windmill at the age of 41 and had a fling with her brother-in-law, John Green. Her saintly husband forgave her, and they went on to have two more children in celebration. Doesnt convince even me. C heshire seems to be very light on Bastardy Orders, so that's been no help. Your ideas will be most welcome. Does anyone want a tree complete with 179 names on it? Olde Crone

That's funny - I can't see a halfwit???? Merry

So when Thomas Green married Mary Trafford, who did he say his father was on the marriage cert???? If you have mentioned this above, apologies - I am peeling childrens bananas at the same time as reading.... Merry

Sorrysorrysorry! Forgot in my distress about the first posting, what a mess. According to the marriage cert of Thomas Green to Mary Trafford, Thomas's father is JOHN Green, not William Green, which is what I was expecting! Olde Halfwit Crone

I had a go using Hugh Wallis's IGI batch-search page... England, British Isles Father: William Green, Mother: Ann Exact Spelling: Off Batch Number: P009421 ELLENOR GREEN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 29 OCT 1820 Gawsworth, Cheshire, England MARY GREEN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 23 JUN 1822 Gawsworth, Cheshire, England **THOMAS GREEN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 27 JUN 1824 Gawsworth, Cheshire, England AMY GREEN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 19 OCT 1828 Gawsworth, Cheshire, England JOHN GREEN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 15 MAY 1831 Gawsworth, Cheshire, England *WILLIAM GREEN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 15 MAY 1836 Gawsworth, Cheshire, England However, this combination seems to generate the wrong birth-years. Certainly the 1861 census shows Thomas as 25, not 36 (although that isn't an absolute guarantee, in my experience), and William as 27 not 24. I'll post this, but I'm not convinced it does anything to disperse the confusion. Christine

And where does Thomas fall within the seven/eight children of William and Ann? Is he eldest/youngest/one in the middle? When did father (or whatever you want to call him!), William, die?? Merry

Apart from the reference to John Green on Thomas' wedding cert, do you have any further details that this John existed? Could it just have been a mistake? nell

Yes, Lyla's right - we need a copy of the 1841 census for Gawsworth......Come on OC, surely you have it somewhere?? Merry

It would seem like a mistake except that he is the only child within the family not baptised..... Must be because he was called Thomas.....Ggrrrr (sorry, personal brick wall shining through for a mo!!) Merry

Christine Thankyou for that - yes, you have the right lot, and yes, that Thomas 1824 threw me a bit - I have been trying to prove he died, but havent managed it yet! My Thomas was born c 1835 (says 1836/1839 on 1871 and 1881) but marriage cert received today says age 23 (on 11th January, 1857). I dont know when 'father' William died, in fact I have never seen him documented anywhere, other than on the PRs.Cannot pin down a death, cos its such a common name.Ditto John Green. Yes, I do need the 1851, but have requested this three times on Records and darent ask again - obviously no-one has it. Does anyone know if it actually EXISTS (for Gawsworth, Cheshire) and if so, where could I buy it? And yep, these are the Greens who married the Rathbeaunes!(Oh, I could tell you some tales about those Rathbeaune girls, some of them sprinted up the aisle with a midwife as bridesmaid) Olde Crone

lol, Olde Crone - Were the Greens florists then??? (making some extra-large bouquets for the bride to hold!) Merry

You can order the film at your local LDS centre!!! This is 1851: LDS Film No. 87140-1 HO107/2161 Macclesfield: Sutton, Gawsworth & Alderley Merry

Or fork out for a CD (from Genfair): 1851 Census Vol. 4 - Macclesfield RD (West) CD-ROM - Ref: CHS-D007 Pieces HO 107/2160-2161. Covering Birtles, Bosley, Capesthorne, Chelford, Chorley (Wilmslow), Eaton (Astbury), Gawsworth, Great Warford, Henbury with Pexhall, Lower Withington, Macclesfield Town (West), Marton (Prestbury), Nether Alderley, North Rode, Old Withington, Over Alderley, Siddington, Snelson, Sutton (Prestbury), Wildboarclough, Wincle (2 disks) Price: £17.87 ( + 3.13 VAT in UK/EU) + postage Merry

Or less for a book (Genfair again): 1851 Census Index Vol. 4 - Macclesfield RD (West) Booklet - Ref: CHS-B007 Surname and Street Indexes to Pieces HO 107/2160-2161. Covering Birtles, Bosley, Capesthorne, Chelford, Chorley (Wilmslow), Eaton (Astbury), Gawsworth, Great Warford, Henbury with Pexhall, Lower Withington, Macclesfield Town (West), Marton (Prestbury), Nether Alderley, North Rode, Old Withington, Over Alderley, Siddington, Snelson, Sutton (Prestbury), Wildboarclough, Wincle. Price: £3.50 ( + 0.00 VAT in UK/EU) + postage Merry

There IS a John Green, who appears to be the brother of William Snr (thats William-and-Ann). I have both their baps. Thanks for the CD info, I think I shall have to buy it as I cannot get to the LDS until 13th September (our schedules clash, lol). I am SOOOO sad about all this, I have the Greens right back to 1567,(Izzable, filia Thomes Grene) seamless and perfect. Pride cometh before a fall, they say....splaaaattttt. Olde Crone

Okay. I have managed to pull myself together (a bit) and I am now off to Hugh Wallis, to batch for any Thomas Anybodies born/bap Gawsworth twixt 1834-1840. I feel fairly certain (and look where that got me!) that John Green MUST be his father - if he was going to make up a father for his wedding, why not call him William??? I may be gone some time. Olde Crone

I know that this is a case of teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but.... 1. Could Thomas write his name? 2. Who were the witnesses? 3. What was John's occupation? - the same as William's? 4. The marriage is obviously not in the registers you have been trawling through. If it is a church wedding, have a look at the other entries, find out about the vicar. Was he old? Do any of the other weddings look dodgy (=full of errors)? The simplest solution - the minister c****d it up - is probably the right one.

...and what a waste of time that was! Nothing jumped out at all. Brenda - I doubt very much if I could manage to suck an egg without instructions at the moment! The marriage cert I have is a photocopy of the original, from the local RO. Both Thomas and Mary signed, in fairly fluent script. The witnesses look like professional wits - I do not recognise the names, and the Vicar is the splendidly named Staffington Armstrong!!!! Hmmm, ok, this is a BIT odd - they married at St George's Church in Sutton, Macclesfield, after Banns, on 11 January, 1858. But both of them came from Gawsworth and both of their families seemed to be regular church-goers (for BMDs, anyway) at St James, in Gawsworth, for centuries. First child (Ann) bapt Dec 1858,(at St James, Gawsworth) so that's reasonably decent. I need to get the PRs of St George, then - see what kind of a record-keeper ole Staffington was.Hopefully he will have kept up the Banns book, too. Thankyou for that, Brenda! Olde Crone

just noticed 1841 Cheshire is now online (unindexed) at Stepping Stones -- brand new this weekend A 50p credit gets a piece or half-piece for a fortnight Min payment £5, but unused credits last until you use them, no expiry had some credits so couldn't resist a quick look. Haven't trawled the whole district (it's slow) but found these two households 1841: HO107/99/23 District Macclesfield Sub-district Gawsworth Enumeration district 2 (Gawsworth (part of)) Folio 7 Page 8 Gawsworth John Green, 45, Farmer Ellinor Do, 20 Wm Do, 8 Thomas Do, 5 Noah White, 15, Ag Lab John Swain, 11, Ag Lab Folio 8 Page 9 Gawsworth William Green, 44, Farmer Ann Do, 40 John Do, 10 William Do, 5 Mark Do, 3 All born in county, ages rounded erratically as usual So two Williams then, and two missing baptisms. At least if the two farmers were brothers (is Ellinor John's niece?) or cousins your Green line is good, but Ann from Birmingham looks like a stepmother, so who's Thomas's mother?