Genealogy Chat

OC - I don't think that William would have been a pauper - I would have thought that a ''beer retailer'' would have had enough cash to pay for a decent burial for his young daughter! By the mid-fifties he is listed in the trades directories as ''grocer & provision dealer'' and remained so until his death in 1865, so he would have been quite a respected member of the community, surely? Although, this may have been his profession later in life as on the birth cert for Mary Anne (1837) he is described as labourer. On the 1841 census his occupation is given simply as ''FS'' - does anyone know what this might stand for? Another strange thing, on his death cert his occupation was given as ''stage coachman'', although he's in the trades directory for that year as grocer! Anyway Mary Anne's death cert will tell me his occupation at the time of her death. Martin - this will also tell me if she died of some nasty disease. I've ordered it and will let you all know the details when it arrives... Cheers, Richard

Flipping from one message board to another I kept seeing this thread but thought you had enough help from the number of replies so didnt immediately read it. Wow Im sure glad I did...what a wealth of information you all have...and a good sense of humour with it. I like the man who wouldnt get out the ditch!!!! Suzanne

Richard I went to my LDS Centre today and while I was there, I discussed this with the Manager and the other volunteers. She immediately said 'Oh, the child was probably an epileptic and as this was seen as possession by the Devil, she would be buried without ceremony, out of the sight of decent, Christian people'. I expressed disbelief that this sort of attitude would still be going on in 1845. However, someone else chipped in that they had seen another entry like this, in the 1860s and the Vicar had written a note in the margin to that effect. How absolutely AWFUL if this is true. But when you consider that even into the 20th century, rich people were locking their mad rellies up in the Attic, and our own Royal Family disposed of a young Prince (Alfred?Albert?) who suffered from epilepsy, then perhaps its not too far fetched? As for not having enough money.....my own family (my 2 x GGF) starts his working life as a labourer. He reinvents himself for his second marriage and becomes an Engine Driver in 1861. In 1871 still an Engine Driver, in 1881 a Grocer and Provisions Merchant. Disappears in 1891, dies in 1898, the informant gives him as a Locomotive Driver. His son married in 1900 and elevated his father to Engineer! He never worked for the Railways. His wife ran a 'House shop'. He drank like a fish and they moved house every time the rent was due. They don't always tell the absolute truth, our dead rellies. Olde Crone

Richard - Does FS = Farm Servant, maybe? Olde Crone - Gosh, that's a real possibility - poor kid. At least if that is right there should be something on the death cert which should confirm. Merry

The death cert would only confirm she was an epileptic if that is what she died of. She may have died of other causes. But regarding attitudes to epilepsy, there are plenty of people around today who can testify negative attitudes (although I think probably no-one believes such people are possessed by the devil). People are often frightened by what they don't understand. nell

Absolutely Fascinating!!! Can not wait to find out...let's hope that they are quick with the cert !

On the 1841 census FS stands for 'female servant'. LOL A mistake somewhere I think! (check out the standard abreviations for 1841 in the insructions found at the beginning of each piece - they were only allowed to abbreviate a few things. MS and FS were among them) Anne

Anne! OK that might explain it - William used to like dressing up in a maid's outfit, the local vicar had a thing against cross-dressers so refused to bury his daughter properly! lol - I shouldn't be so disrespectful to ggg-grandad really. OC - I knew that you'd come up trumps, that certainly does sound a more likely scenario. Will be very interesting to find out the cause of death on the cert. The GRO estimated dispatch date was 20th September, then allow a few more days for it to get delivered to me out here in the colonies, so watch this space in a couple of weeks! Thanks all for your interest and helpful comments and suggestions, Richard

LOL....I prefer the cross dresser idea myself! Suzanne

Well, the certificate has arrived... Mary Ann died on 4-Jun-1842, cause of death given as ''small pox without previous vaccination''. Her father's occupation was ''beer seller'' (as it was on the 1851 census), so I can't imagine that he was a pauper. However, she was buried on the same day that she died, which I suppose was normal with an infectious disease. Can't see why this would have precluded a service, unless I suppose they buried her quickly (due to the infectious nature of her condition) but then held the service later, maybe the next Sunday? Of course, if that was the case there would be no record of the service, as it is the burial that is recorded in the register, not the service. That's the best explanation that I can come up with ... what do you all think? Richard

What an amazing thread to read, Thanks for all the insight into so many things by you all. And thanks for the thread Richard. Suex

Richard No way to tell if your theory is right, but it sounds likely. nell

Well at least we now know the reason for this.. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Richard, Found this on a Rootsweb site about Todmorden and Walsden. Tells a bit about the Beerhouse Act of 1830 and the occupation of beer seller. The consumption of spirits such as gin abounded in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, so much so that the general drunkenness of the poor people, who found it a way of seeking oblivion from the terrible conditions they endured, became a major issue with the government. In 1825 the duty had been halved on gin causing a massive rise in the sale, leading to even more drunken and abusive behaviour in the “gin palaces”. It became known as “mother's milk” and later “mother's ruin”. It was regularly given to babies and children as a cure all - hence it's nickname. To try and alter the drinking habits of the nation, the government abolished the duty on beer in an effort to promote it's sales as a “healthy” alterative to gin. Beer was seen as the lesser evil to gin and the hope was that people would be less inclined to get into the same drunken state as they did from spirits. The Duke of Wellington's Beerhouse Act of 1830 came into force, allowing anyone to apply for a licence to sell just beer and cider (not spirits) from their home for six days of the week. They had to close on Sundays. The cost of a licence was 2 guineas and to obtain one you applied to the local excise officer and not the local magistrates, as was the case with the public house that sold both beer and spirits. This caused a rise in the number of licensed premises by a half in the years after 1831. Cottages and houses were selling home brewed ale at the front and carrying on another business at the back. They could open for twenty-four hours and usually did, which meant that the new act did nothing at all to lessen the conditions in the pubs and beerhouses. There were still the same drunken scenes, gambling, fighting and other associated raucous behaviour. People would drink until their money ran out, go back to work to earn some more and then back to the pub to spend it again. A never ending round of drink and work, with drink taking precedence. It led to the rise of the Temperance movement. As the bill was passing through the House of Lords it was reported that a Peer had been overheard saying that if the Act were passed, the people would continue in their drunkenness and could be ruled and governed over at will. On reading this report, William Marshall, a mule spinner of Old Friths Mill, Dulesgate, a man who like a drink in moderation, declared that he would never touch another drop, and he never did. A second act in 1834 was passed to categorise the publican's licence into three types: a full one was granted for the sale of beer and sprits each year by the local magistrates, and the beerhouses were divided between “on” or “off” sales. Some of the beerhouses remained unnamed and were known as “jerry shops” whilst the ones that decided to put up a named sign were called “white signs”. This then was the state of the licensing laws in the early19th century.

Richard Thankyou for putting us all out of our misery! I think you have it right, she was buried hurriedly because of the extremely infectious nature of Smallpox - it wouldn't have 'done' to have had her lying in the Pub for any length of time. And let's hope they DID have a service for her, during daylight hours. Poor little soul. Olde Crone