Genealogy Chat

Hi I have been looking for a Martha Ann Smith, one of a number of children born to William Smith and Sarah /Ann Tinkler. It states on census born Norfolk abt 1851. although mothers name is shown as Ann I found a Christening on IGI for Aug 1850 in Norfolk, with the parents shown as Sarah Ann Tinkler and William Smith. I found a Martha Ann Tinkler born 1850 on 1837(.)com sent for cert with just the fathers name and got the reply that it was the incorrect parents name. Can anyone please advise as to where i go from here. I cannot find a wedding for William and Sarah/Ann either. I have a birth cert for a brother of Martha born 1863 where the mother is shown as Ann Tinkler. many thanks maureen

If Martha Ann Tinkler was born illegitimate, there's a good chance her father is not on the birth cert as this would mean him having to attend the registrars office. An unmarried woman could not state the father of her child unless he was present. So the cert you requested may have been the right one! Merry

If Martha's parents weren't married when she was born then, although the baptism entry may have had both their names (some vicars would enter the reputed father's name for illegitimate children) the birth registration would very likely only have had the mother's name - hence GRO response to your request. You might have done better to only specify mother's name (possibly giving both Sarah and Ann to cover any discrepancies) or to have ordered without giving parents' names at all.

Thanks Merry and Judith. Never thought of that!! Can i order a cert without either parent shown do you know? maureen

I couldn't find your family easily on the census, so this may not be relevant, but........ You said the baptism shows the mother to be Sarah Ann Tinkler and that she would appear to be unmarried when her child was baptised....... You also said (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) that on a census (which one) the mother is Ann rather than Sarah. Could it be that Sarah Ann Tinkler didn't marry William Smith because she died and this Ann is a different woman?? Do you have a birth cert for any of the later children? Merry PS The minimum to order a birth cert is the name of the child, plus year, quarter and ref numbers.

I have the 1871 census which reads Ann Smith 1829 St Ives Huntingdonshire wife Charles Smith 1865 Sydenham Son Henry Smith 1870 Peckham Surrey Son James Smith 1866 Sydenham Son Martha 1851 Lowestoft Norfolk Daughter Mary Smith 1858 Poplar Daughter Robert Smith 1853 Islington Middx Son (awaiting cert) William Smith 1819 Norwich Southgate Head William Smith 1860 Southwark Son Isaac Smith 1863 Putney Son I have the birth cert for Isaac, he was the easy one as his middle name was Banham, it states his Dad was William and his Mother Ann Tinkler maureen

Lowestoft is actually in Suffolk now and I think very much on the border then. I would check out that area for Martha.

This looks like her, Lowestoft is a few miles down from Yarmouth: I believe they had same reg district Is this the one you sent for? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Births Jun 1850 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Smith Martha Ann Gt. Yarmouth 13 413

Heather - I thought the birth reg was supposed to be in the name Tinkler? Merry

Dont think so, dad was William Smith, mum Ann Tinkler. I dont think we know Martha Ann was illegitimate - just havent found the parents marriage as yet.

The 1861 census has her birth place as Lowestoft in Suffolk: William Smith Head Mar 43 painter Norwich Ann Smith 34 Wife Mar Huntingdonshire St Ives Martha Smith daughter 10 Suffolk Lowestoft Robert Smith Son 8 Middlesex Balls Pond Mary Smith Dau 3 Middlesex Poplar William Smith son 15 m Surrey Southwark Lowestoft was in Mutford registration district

Heather Yes, i realized that Lowestoft and Yarmouth were pretty near each other and that Lowestoft is now Suffolk, i presumed there had been some boundary changes. That is the cert i sent off for. On the IGI (Batch No C132672) she is down as Martha Ann SMITH christening 18 Aug 1850 Saint Peter Southgate Norwich Norfolk parents William Smith, Sarah Ann Tinkler so i couldnt see how she could be christened before she was born, but as i said, began doubting what the IGI said. maureen

Sorry!!! Disregard what i just wrote about the date of birth - this is doing my head in. maureen

Maureen - a census doesn't show who somebody's mother is unless the mother is actually the head of household, i.e. the father is not there. If your census entry contains head, wife, and children, you cannot assume that the wife is the mother of any of the children as she could have married their father any time, i.e. she could be his second wife (or indeed he never married the children's mother). Also, you can't trust the first name as given on the census to be the person's actual first name, as you will often find they are listed on the census by the name they were usually called, be it a middle name, nickname, or whatever, but on certificates, baptisms, marriages etc. you are more likely to find their full name. So for example a Sarah Ann or Martha Ann who was usually called Ann might well be Ann on the census. Kate.

Heather - Oh I see....I took having the mother's surname on the baptism to mean the baby was illegitimate! Don't you just hate the name William Smith Gggrrrr - I have over a dozen on my tree and they seem to cost SOOOO much to sort out! Merry

Oh, and if you were questioning why it says 'abt. 1851' for her birthdate on the census, unfortunately nearly all these websites helpfully subtract the person's age from the year of the census to give you an estimated year of birth, but as censuses are always in the first half of the year this more often than not gives a result which is one year out! If only they just reported the age as it is given on the census and left us to calculate year of birth ourselves... anyway, that means that if a census index or transcription gives her year of birth as about 1851 it is more likely she was born in 1850! Kate.

I spent ages looking for my GGPx2 marriage - they actually married 17 years after first child born Stepney. Got one of the younger kids birth certs (older ones not registered) and great sigh of relief, mothers name - yep, Mary Ann Smith. BUT I could then find the marriage and got the cert and her dad was William WEBB Smith which was such a great help and he was a customs officer. But I must say my heart dropped after all that searching and then saw her surname!

And it is often helpful to look at the actual parish register or through a load of entries in the same batch on the IGI to see if most of the baptisms give mother's surname as different from the father's because if this is so, it means that was just how they recorded the baptisms in the parish - they liked to add in the mother's maiden name - rather than that all the children were illegitimate. Kate.

SO, if she honestly gave the truth - maybe only mum is down on the certificate and that is yours. And I would think the christening is right - 2 months after the birth and in dads parish of birth. Mum probably went back home to have the baby and it was registered there.

Judith Just to add to the fun - Robert shown as being born Battersea on 1861 census, Islington in 1871, havent yet found him in 1881 but did find Charles and Isaac living together with a family called Haswell maureen