Genealogy Chat

Well, for England and Wales post-1858, you can search in the National Probate Calendar which is held on microfiche at some record offices and probate offices, though record offices may not have it right up to the present day (my local one has microfiches up to 1942, I think it is, and volumes up to the 1960's) to see if probate or administration was granted. It is organised by year the grant was made, which is usually the year of the death or maybe the year after the death, but could be years and years after! Within each year it is in alphabetical order of surname and first name within surname. If you find an entry you can order the will or letter granting administration from York for £5. If you know the person's address and when they died, you can pay York the £5 to do the search and send you a copy of the will etc. but they will only search a certain number of years, I think it is 3, and you don't get a refund if they find nothing! The details of how to order from York are on http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1176.htm As for Scotland, you can search online at Scotland's People up to 1901, but after that I don't know. Kate.

bump. Can anyone advise me on how I woulod find out if there was a will? Is it likely a clerk left one? Thanks

Haven't checked for a will. How would I go about that? I am still quite new to this!

Hey i've just been reading this and its a very interesting story, i hope you get it all sorted out. I've found a birth for a Katharine Leckie Gordon on the IGI. KATHARINE LECKIE GORDON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 25 MAR 1864 Kelton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland Parents - John Gordon and Isabella McWilliam Hope this helps in some way Mhairi

Yes, but where his will was proved /administration granted could depend on where he held property. He could even have probate granted in both countries! So it would be worth searching both England and Scotland (if it is possible to search Scotland after 1901). But of course there could be nothing to find. Also if you can find wills of either 'father-in-law', or indeed, Fred's father, it could help. My family has a similar tangle and I have been able to sort out one wife's story, with the help of several wills and administration grants, but the other one is still something of a mystery. Kate.

Good point, Kate - from Jo's post, he died in England

Have you checked to see if he (Fred) left a will? I don't know how you can check for post-1901 wills in Scotland, though. Kate.

Boot salesman and hatter could both have been itinerant trades, so I can understand Fred being away from home in 1881. But that didn't excuse him for playing away! Jay

I know. My head tells me there must be some mistake - but all the facts (except the fact he started as a boot maker and a hatter before becoming a clerk - can that be right?) point to the mystery. I can't think of any way - short of finding any further surviving grandchildren - of solving the mystery. It's a real shame. I would love to 'solve' it for the family!

Oooo eer, Jo!!!! I am absolutely riveted by this lot! Mmmmm Jay

I am waiting for the birth certificate of: Name: GRAVES, Alice Record Type: Births Quarter: March Year: 1862 District: Manchester (1837-1924) County: Lancashire Volume: 8d Page: 319 (click to see others on page) I am hoping her father is listed as Robert, the same as her and Fred's marriage certificate. Katherine Leckie Gordon is potentially harder as I have no facts about her family. However, there was a Katherine Leckie Gordon born in 1864, daughter of John and Isabella, born in Kelton, Dumfries who is of the right age. Does that help...?

Jo, Jacqui beat me to it - I was wondering if the origins of either Alice or Katharine would offer any clues! Jay

Jo If Fred and his parents were all born in Manchester it could just be that Alices inlaws didnt give her correct pob in 1891 Have you found a birth for Katherine or Alice? Jacqui

Sorry, my mistake - he was actually born inMay 1861, a slip of the finger I'm afraid, so at least the birth certificate is right! The informant of his death was his son Fred (my partner's grandfather). 'Leckie' was still alive then and, I guess, living in the Hendon / Edgware / Kingsbury area. What are the chances there would be an obituary? Slim, I guess, considering he was only a clerk. I can understand his wife moved out after he moved in with his 'mistress' but she moved back in with him and then he ended up with his 'mistress' anyway! All the time the children stayed with Fred. Very strange... I suppose that would explain why I can't find a marriage certificate for Katherine and Fred (if there wasn't one!), and why I can't find a birth certificate for Carrie (she may have been born under another name).

Yes, it's very strange - and the obvious reason would be to think there are 2 Fred Jepsons ... but it just doesn't make sense (not that what I have does!) The informants are as follows: Charles H - informant Alice, mother Carrie - no birth cert found Elsie - informant Kate, mother Mary - informant Fred, father Fred - informant Fred, father William - informant - Fred, father I have just found the listing for the 1901 census in Alexandria, Scotland. They were mis transcribed as Jackson: Fredk B., age 39 Alice, age 37 Carrie, age 12 Elsie, age 7 Mary, age 3 Fred, age 1 I also found Charles Henry JEPSON, enumerated or transcribed as JEPHSON, age 20, Private in the 2nd Royal Highlanders - in Montrose District, Angus. So, he had yet to have his final child with Katherine Leckie - where was she or do you think Alice Graves from Manchester and Katherine Leckie Gordon from Scotland were one and the same? If so, why have 2 such different names and birth places? One thing to mention, my partner's father remembers all his aunts and uncles with the exception of Charles who he had never heard of. It may be that because he was older and stayed in Scotland, maybe he died before my partner's father was born, but they were a relatively close family so it is strange he had never even heard of him.

Probably less than helpful, but it wouldn't be the first time a man moved his mistress into the marital home and the wife left in a huff, to go and live with HIS outraged parents! And then decided to give it another go....only to find out he was still seeing the other woman.... I think you have to get some certs for each 'set 'of children (oops, see you already have them). Where did this naughty man die and who was the informant? Olde Crone

Hi Jo This is a strange one. If you didnt have Katherine and Alice both having children at the same address I'd say you had 2 different families. Who registered the births? If it was the same person on all the 'Alice' births and then someone different for the 'Katherine' ones then maybe she is the same woman just known by both names? Jacqui

Am I OK to still post on this board or should I be on 'Trying to Find'? OK, I have: Fred Barber Jepson born in Manchester to Charles and Maria from Dewsbury, Yorks in May 1851 *** Frederick marries Alice Graves in Manchester in November 1879. (Frederick's father is listed as Charles). Frederick's profession is a Boot Salesman. **** 1880 birth certificate, Cheetham Machester: Charles Harry born to Fred Jepson and Alice Jepson formerly Graves. Occupation: Hatter (?!) *** 1881 census: Alice is living with Charles and Maria (no sign of Fred), and Fred';s brother William H, in Manchester with son Charles H (aged 7 months). (William H is listed as unmarried so I am sure this is the same Alice) *** 1891 census: Fred B Jepson living in Cheetham with his 'wife' Katherine from Scotland, his mother, a widow from Dewsbury, Maria, 9 year old son Chas H and 2 year old daughter Carrie. Fred's occupation: Clerk. I don't have a birth certificate for Carrie - can't find it (perhaps because she was a Katherine too and possibly not a 'Jepson', although I have her marriage certificate from Scotland in 1913 which states her mother to be Katherine Jepson, maiden surname Gordon ? *** 1892 birth certificate, Cheetham Manchester: Elsie born to Fred Jepson and Kate Jepson formerly Gordon. Occupation of father Insurance Clerk. *** 1897 birth certificate, Bonhill Dumbartonshire, Scotland: Mary born to Fred Jepson and Alice Jepson, maiden surname Graves. Occupation: Insurance Superintendant. (Address of birth 292 Main Street, Alexandria) *** 1899 birth certificate, Bonhill Dumbartonshire Scotland: Fred (partners great grandfather) born to Fred Barber Jepson and Alice Jepson maiden surname Graves. Occupation: Clerk. (Address of birth 292 Main Street, Alexandria) **** 1901 census, Scotland: I need to relook at this as it doesn't seem to be on my computer! *** 1901 marriage certificate, Edinburgh: Charles H Jepson married Violet Robertson. Father Fred Barber Jepson mother Alice Jepson, maiden surname Graves. Fathers' occupation: Mercantile Clerk. *** 1904 birth certificate, Bonhill Dumbarton: William Henry Jepson born to Fred Jepson and Katherine Jepson, maiden surname Gordon. Birth address: 292 Main Street, Alexandria. *** 1913 marriage certificate, Bonhill Dumbarton: Carrie Jepson married Alfred John Davey. Father Fred Barber Jepson, mother Katherine Jepson, maiden surname Gordon. Fathers' occupation: Cashier. Carrie's home address: 292 Main Street, Alexandria (!) *** 1918 marriage certificate, Bonhill Dumbarton: Elsie Jepson married Herbert Wilkes. Father Fred Barber Jepson, mother Katherine Leckie Jepson, maiden surname Gordon. Fathers' occupation: Invoice clerk. Elsie's home address: 292 Main Street, Alexandria. *** 1920 marriage certificate, Kingsbury Middlesex: Fred Jepson (my partners great grandfather) married Marjorie Elizabeth. Father Fred Barber Jepson, Occupation: clerk. *** 1931 death certificate, Hendon Middlesex: Frederick Barber Jepson aged 70 at Redhill Hospital, Edgware.

I can go along with Fred having two wives, but in that case it seems very odd indeed that the two women never both appear in a census, even allowing for mistranscriptions. Where are the two sets of children in census years or are they missing too, as well as the mother?

Hi Yes, I have a copy of the marriage cert for Fred and Alice Graves from the record office, in 1879 although his age is listed as 20 (and his baptism certificate, which came from the family, had his date of birth as 1861). I don't have any birth, marriage or death certificates for Katherine although she is listed on the birth certificates and marriage certificates (two got married in Scotland and mothers are listed there) of her natural children. Throughout the paperwork there is a very clear division between Alice formerly Gaves and Katherine (sometimes spelt with a C, although my partners aunt is spelt with a K which I believe is the correct family spelling). The children with Alice on their birth certificates also list her on their marriage certificates and likewise with Katherine. It's a real mystery ... is it worth paying a professional to have a look? I'm stumped!