Genealogy Chat

Surely having the text in front of you isn't cheating. An English exam should be a test of your ability to interpret the text, not how much of it you can remember under stress. Whilst I do get narked about sloppy spelling and even sloppier punctuation, I don't think people who are naturally not gifted with spelling ability should be penalised in non-English exams like history or geography. I DO get annoyed when there are mistakes in spelling and grammar from people who should know better - for example the Education dept. nell

And they say exams arent being dumbed down. I can remember having to virtually quote passages from Silas Marner and Macbeth from memory for my Lit exams.

Heather - yes, I can believe it, since it's only four years since I was doing the same myself. Not only did we get to take the books into the exam - but we took them along with whatever notes we'd made in the margins over the previous few months!

My late MIL continually apologised for her stupidity and lack of education - she left school at 10 (someone turned a blind eye) and had hardly attended before that. Yet she wrote beautifully laid out letters and her grammar, spelling and punctuation was always correct. I have in my possession a notebook, kept by my Gt GF. He was Manager of the Co-op Pickle Works in Manchester for a while, LOL, and the book contains 'secret' recipes, all written out and costed in his beautiful copperplate script. It is all the more remarkable because he came from a dirtpoor family and I have often wondered where the money came from to educate him and his two brothers. What Heather says is correct as far as my knowledge goes - the education of the working classes was frowned on, if not actually discouraged, by the Middle and Upper classes, and by the Established Church, who had a vested interest in keeping a vast mass of workers in ignorance. From what I have read though, the Education Act of 1875 was passed in response to a lack of people educated for the needs of the time - it was the boom years for Britain and they simply didnt have enough Clerks, Engineers etc, or people they could use for middle management and supervisory jobs. I have been surprised to find two seperate branches of my family, receiving an education in the very early 1700s. One was a village school 'open to all parishioners and their children' and the other was a house school, set up by the famous Owd Timothy o't' Looms in Darwen Lancs. He was a strong nonconformist, and opened his cottage for handloom weavers to gather and to learn to read (the Bible - the Established Church did not encourage anyone of the lower orders to read the Bible). Olde Crone

I have a school excercise book completed by my g-grandmother's sister in about 1875. She was just nine years of age. There are nearly 50 pages in the book, but there is not one mistake or correction in it and no blots either!! It is all beautiful copperplate with a really fine nib. The only minus is that it's all copied work.....poems, Bible text etc......I suppose it wasn't ''done'' to actually teach girls too much! Merry

Hi Sylvia, On my grt grandads birth cert in the fathers column its got an X and it says the mark of thomas charles father, i sent for thomas marriage cert and at the bottom where the bride and groom are supposed to sign its got an X and says the mark of thomas charles and his bride couldnt write either, nor could the witness by the looks of it as it says the mark of and the witness`s names.

Michael and Paul, have to agree with you. My darling dad who died aged 91 last October had the most beautiful copper plate writing, I used to love getting a card from him as the address on the envelope would be really almost a work of art. He was born in one of the poorest areas of London, left school at 13 but his knowledge of history and his thirst for knowledge lasted all his life. Re the 'dont need to spell correctly, its history not English'. I remember when eldest boy was doing his GSCEs. It was the morning of his Eng Lit exam and he was thrashing about looking for his copy of 'Of Mice and Men'. I said to him (a bit harshly actually) 'Well if you dont know it now, its a bit late to start reading it'. Paul/Michael - he said to me 'What do you mean, we take the books into the exam with us' Can you believe that? They can sit there reading it as they answer the questions!

LOL Nell! Love it. Its interesting that I guess (in addition to illiteracy) that dyslexia existed back then too - and bright kids were in Victoria Woods words 'stuck at the back of the class making raffia baskets'. One of our local entrepreneurs - a multi millionaire cant read or write - I was told by one of his employees that he even gets people to fill in the cheques for him (theres trust for you). Our local vet is also dyslexic and for the past 20 odd years weve been to him, he always has one of the nurses sitting in to write down his diagnosis and to write out prescriptions. I guess people back then were just as resourceful albeit not having the same opportunities as now.

Paul, As one who was at school in the 90s and 00s I have to agree with you - our Latin teacher only made us write the word out three times for the first offence (although it became 9 for the second, 27 for the third, and he told us he had once had an instance of someone making the same mistake for a fourth time and writing it out 81 times). Most of the others didn't bother at all, in some cases because their spelling was worse than ours. Michael

This thread reminds me there;s a short story by Somerset Maugham about a verger whose vicar dies. The new vicar wants a man to take minutes and records and is shocked to discover the verger can't write. He suggests that the man learn, but the verger says he is too old to learn now and resigns. He walks along, thinking about what to do next and wants some tobacco for his pipe. He is amazed at walking a long way without finding a tobacco shop, and then decides to open one. His first shop is a roaring success and he goes to the bank to get a loan to help open another one. The bank manager produces a form to sign. When the man says he can't write the manager is astounded - such a good businessman, just think what you could be if you could write, he says. 'I'd still be the verger at St Paul's' is the reply. nell

At the risk of sounding like an old fart, I am shocked at the lax methods of modern teaching. I went to a very old-fashioned school in the 60's, but we all adored Miss Stokes our teacher. She would not tolerate spelling mistakes whatever the subject lesson and made us write a word out 20 times if we spelt it wrong. When I asked my daughter's history teacher why she didn't correct spelling mistakes she said 'This was a History lesson, not English.' I think this explains why when we see examples of children's work from 50 years ago or more, the grammar, the spelling and the handwriting are often beautifully perfect.

Amazing, isnt it Paul? It could be she was ok at figures - in the family mag I was talking about it said that in some areas, they taught the kids the absolute basics just to be good workers. Hence some boys may only be taught to count - because that was important re, no. of animals, sheaves of wheat etc. I guess there was a fear that a population too educated would be more rebellious. I was reading another article about sunday schools and how they began basically to give kids in poor areas like dockland london somewhere to go for a decent meal once a week. Though they also received a basic education. Apparently the government grew so fearful that these 'Sunday Schools' could be teaching the poor to be more questioning and rebellious that the first education act was born to bring education under government control and kids into school. (Shoot me down in flames experts, but thats how I interpreted it!!) If anyone has more info, it would be interesting.

My ancestor Rachel Jones continued to run a dairy business in Victorian London after her husband died and she signed with an X. I've been wondering how anybody could run such a business without being able to read or write - how did she place orders, submit invoices, check her accounts?

Thank you for all the interesting replies. One thing has struck me about this particular cert: The males-Groom &1st witness are illiterate: The females_Bride & 2nd witness are literate. I wonder if this was common place for females to be more educated than men? Sylvia.

I just meant generally - not this particular couple.

Yes, but in this case, as I said before, if the groom 'made his mark' and the bride actually signed her name, it is much more likely to mean that the groom couldn't actually write his name - what are the chances that he would be intimidated into making his mark and the bride wouldn't?! Kate.

Its a shame we have no definites in this research isnt it. Full age could be 21 or 105 OR it could mean under 21. Signing X could mean they are illiterate OR could mean they arent. Funnily enough I was reading one of my family history mags recently and they said the literacy rate - even among the poor - was higher than it is now! So I often think, it was a case of a couple of young people (or old people) nervous in the presence of an 'official', who said 'Put your mark there' and they did it because they felt intimidated by someone of a 'higher' class.

I have a marriage certificate from the 1870s with an X where the bride's signature should be. Stella

If they had all 'made their mark', I wouldn't necessarily assume that meant they couldn't write, but if some signed their names and some made their mark, it is most likely that those ones couldn't write. As for who filled in their names, either the vicar or the parish clerk? Kate.

I have certs signd with x's as well---the thing is their mother was a school mistress--so why would the kids be illiterate