Genealogy Chat

Yes Vicky, I think you are right, there was a lot of clerical sucking-up to the Holdens, and undoubtedly any other 'importsnt fasmily'. I also think that the consistency of the spelling in other documents, such as Land Transfers, Marriage Settlements etc, pointed to the Holdens employing a scribe, who would probably have made it his business to get the name right. However, the Holdens frequently intermarried with the Shuttleworth family, another 'great' family in Mediaeval times. The name Shuttleworth is spelled any way you like, including Schotilewerthe - perhaps they didnt have their own scribe! I find this name business fascinating. The very first (earliest) document I found relating to the Holdens, refers to Roger the Cook at Schotilewerthe Manner. I thought it a bit odd that a humble cook would be involved in a hefty land transaction and eventually emailed Lancs RO, to ask them to confirm this translation. They replied saying that the original document spoke of Roger the COCK at Schotilewerthe. Now, the Holden Coat of Arms is 6 moorcocks and knowing that these Arms were often a play on words, I am pretty confident that this is Roger Holden, Cock of the Moor in 1219 - they owned about half of Lancashire then, including vast tracts of moorland. He was also a bit of a lad.....LOL OC

another late reply... I tried writing this last night but was so tired it wouldn't come out right! I suppose the more people who write your name, the more chance of an alternate spelling. This is certainly true of the variations found in the early census returns (up to 1871/1881 or so, when the spelling stabilised) and appears irrespective of whether the occupier was illiterate. When my family was in Swaledale, the Hakin spelling was used over several years in the late 17th century, and all the entries were done by the same incumbent. His successors during the 18th century seem to have favoured ''Hawkin''. It varies between Hakin & Hawkin during the 1820's - 1840's, but spread over several different parishes. Do you suppose, if its an important family like your Holdens, the incumbent would look at previous entries in the registers to make sure the spelling was consistent?

Vicky You may be onto something there. My 'Landed Holdens' of Holden Manor, originally, always have their name spelled correctly as Holden on all the documents I have seen, and some of these are very early indeed.It is the peasant and mobile Holdens who get consistently mis-spelled. Ditto the Greens who were big fish in a little pond for 500 years - the only variation in spelling was the very early Grene (mind you, you would have to go some, to mangle a name like Green) My rarest ancestor, name-wise, was one Quarton Levitt, who moved around the country quite a lot - his name is never spelled the same way twice! OC

Is it a coincidence that the families who seemed to stay put also had consistent spellings of their names? I seem to have a very strong correlation between the mobility of the family & the number of variations of their surname! So far my worst for spelling are my Hakins, but I have a family of Buntings where 6 generations are born in 6 different towns. I have Bunting, Buntting, Bunten and Banten on the censuses, but parish records & land deeds also include Buntynge etc etc. My Commons only relocated twice, but have been Commin & were originally Comyn.

Yes Vicky, I think it was almost compulsory for farmers to marry other farmers. My lot stayed put for almost 500 years in the same farmhouse. Very obliging of them, I say! OC

We are getting off topic a little, but I was looking earlier this evening at my Harpers - from Harptree - and wondering which came first, the name of the family or the name of the village... anyway, I started looking at how the population had changed over the period 1841 - 1901 (very little - only a small decrease). But what did surprise me is how many of the people living there were actually BORN in the village. Its pretty consistent 1851 -1901 at around 50%. The ''incomers'' were almost all from surrounding villages. I think it was quite usual for ag labs to move around a bit, but never too far. They then met & married someone from the next village, and would settle in one or the other. I believe the Hiring Fairs were not just places to look for work! As for inbreeding, so far I've found more cousin marriages in my copyholder farmers in Northumberland than these Somerset villages...

Nell Another possible branch of my family - although I do hope not - came from the then tiny village of Darwen in Lancs, pop in 1700 was 699. 698 of these had the surname Holden. Being not stupid, they gave everyone a nickname, to distinguish them from each other. So we have Peg o' Toms Tom o' Pegs Owd Timothy o't'Looms Owd Timothy Owd Timothy 0' Timothy's and so on...and so on...really helpful.Owd Timothy o't' Looms, 1700-1798 has over ten thousand descendants and still counting. Darwen was very isolated in the 1700s! OC

Oh Olde Crone, I am convinced that most of our ancestors way back would rather stay indoors, keeping warm, committing incest, than venture as far as the next village to find a mate! I've got several family strands in tiny villages where they share out 4 or 5 surnames between everyone. Plus they all give the children the same frigging first names. I think they must all have had nicknames to tell who was who. Although of course with all that incest and inter-marriage, they probably all looked like clones anyway. nell

There are lots of present-day Hawkings AND Hockings/Hockens in my part of Cornwall. I'm pretty sure, off the top of my head, that they are all related. Olde Crone

OC - thanks for the reminder about the Lancashire -ING ! I can hear Hilda Baker quite clearly in my head now! Nell - I could imagine Hocking being a variant of Hawkin. I tried all sorts looking for my Hakins - including saying it with a mouth full of toffee - and finally I struck lucky with that Hoggin family! (Unusually for Ancestry, it says Hoggin on the census form.) I looked for Hagan too (rumoured to come from the same root, if my gt uncle is to be believed) What HAS rather surprised me is that no-one ever seems to have dropped the H. I thought another likely variant would be Ai(t)ken, but this doesn't seem to be the case. The IGI are quite good at finding names that are quite similar, but it won't bring up Hawkins & Hakins in the same search.

Not an expert in linguistics but did live 'oop north' for years. I can image Hawkin being pronounced as Haaa-ken quite easily. My Holdens often make an appearance as Holdings, because Lancashire dialect cannot let a word end in -en, it has to make it -ing! (My Auntie used to say 'Ive been in the garding all afternoon, weeding'). The Holdens make a slightly more mysterious appearance as Houlden/Houlding/Houldinge, Holdan, Holdin, Holdon and Holdun, as Olden, Olding, Oulden and most baffling of all, OLOLODEN. Wonder we ever find any of them really, isnt it. OC

Jeannie I have a chap whose name on his marriage cert is written wrongly and who has spelt it correctly when he signed it (cert from 1900). I don't think many people read things before they sign them, or if they do spot an error, don't want to make a fuss. Vicky I had a gt gt uncle who left a Will leaving some of his money to a niece called May Hawkins. In the Will, its written as Hocking. The Uncle was blind and marked X on the Will. I wondered whether Hocking was meant to be Hawkins and he was unable to see to correct it, or whether Hocking/Hawkins were variants. There are plenty of folk spelt both ways in the village where uncle lived. nell

I have great difficulty with some accents. I have been looking for Hakin ancestors. We seem to have standardised the pronunciation now as Hay-kin. Throughout the latter 19th century they are in Northumberland, and the spelling is usually Hakin or Haken, though with one notable census entry as Hoggin. I can cope with spellings like Haiken or Hayking, which seem perfectly compatible with our modern pronunciation. I traced my tree back to a baptism in 1798 in Swaledale & this chap's subsequent marriage in 1821. During the 1820's - 1840's this particular family migrated northwards through Durham, finally pitching up north of Newcastle. I have several parish register entries for Hawkin/Hawkins baptisms that I can match up with definite birth registrations. Otherwise I wouldn't have thought Hawkin sounded much like Hakin. When I started looking through the parish registers in Swaledale I found a lot of Hawkins - and no Hakins - throughout most of the 18th century. But back in the 17th century, they appear as Hakin - and also Haukin. I can definitely link the early Haukin & Hakin as the same family. Its obvious Hauken is the same as Hawkin, but the Hakin spelling worries me. Any specialists in linguistics out there?

Hi OCH, Many thanks for your various thoughts. I am lucky thay they settled in Hawarden and that the records are transcribed in book form. So I have seen the many closely related names.Brererton being one of many!! Was quite interested in a Bruton for a while. I then found Williams marriage in Shotwick and that has thrown up Cheshire. There are a few areas in Cheshire with Brewertons but not quite right for the date.

Jeanie And another thought! Having recently flogged through some Cheshire registers, there were an awful lot of Breretons! Olde Crone

The Duvals in my family have caused me some grief. Years ago, when my Great Gran had to go into a nursing home, we could not track down a birth certificate for her to sort out her pensions, repeated searches threw up nothing. Now I am researching the family, and recently started on that branch, the variations are many, Duval, Duvall, Deval, Dival, Derval and Defell. I think I have finally found Great Grans Birth cert under DOVAL, after doing a phonetic search. I think the local accent and illiteracy had a lot to do with it. Registrars and census enumerators probably wrote what they thought they heard at the time.

My friend was quite please when I found her Great Gran, a Herring, was really a Heron. Her Dad had lived in a small village in Wiltshire with lots of other Herons going back years (even a Herons Bridge in the village, still there today) He moved to Yorkshire, so again it was probably the accent that changed the name to Herring.

Jeanie Just an idea - see if you can track down Poor Law Records for Gt Broughton. Foundlings and orphans were often given the name of the Parish as a surname. Olde Crone

i had a thomas hodgetts that on various census was thomas hodgkins - thomas hodgkinson - thomas hodges and thomas hedges !! so i think that the ennumerator just wrote i down as he thought it sounded. i was looking on a census today and i noticed another family had four children aged between 8 and 2 and they hadnt go any names the were just child 1 child 2 child3 and child 4 i think that was a lazy ennumerator. but just imagine if that was one family you were trying to trace !! love linda

Thanks for both of your thoughts. The Brewertons were part of GT. Broughton and have often searched through that name, of which there are many!! I have never managed to find William Brewerton's birth c 1765 Cheshire/Wales but who knows, one of these days.