Genealogy Chat

Just got in and WOW I didn't mean to stir everybody up but what wonderful knowledge, and helpful advice has been forthcoming. Having studied both the threads mentioned above, I have completed a free assessment form on one of the sites shown and hope to get a reply soon, be interesting to see what they have to say. I think I will take a chance and write to the church at Monkwearmouth to see if they do have any additional info and also take a closer look at the info from Mallow with regard to the info re travel back and forth. Thankyou all for your contributions.

Janet I too have been horrified to discover documents which are hundreds of years old, being held by various Solicitors. When you consider how Solicitors practices have changed hands over and over again down the centuries..... Also, estate papers dating back to the 1300s are still in the family's hands - I feel compelled to rush to their house and make sure they are looking after them properly! I suppose all this just makes me very grateful to all the fussy little clerks down the centuries, who never threw anything away. OC

Old Crone Be thankful you are lucky enough not to have Irish ancestors! Even my English side produced an Irish great grandmother! Still, it does sharpen the mind and make you prepared to try anything, well almost anything! I think we are in agreement that these old records should be deposited somewhere like the CRO, and I will continue to voice my disapproval when I come up against any church who is not keeping their records in good order. I will also keep badgering the CRO's to try to get hold of these records! On a different note, I have been horrified to learn that despite Devon being one of the main counties receiving evacuated children during the Second W War, there are no records of any substance at the Devon Record Office in Exeter. I have tried to research this area in Devon, with very little success, to be told by Exeter that little was kept! There are so many records that should be in Record Offices and aren't. I will get off my soap box now! Janet

Many thanks, folks. I think I will try to find out who to write to at St Georges Southwark. It's definitely St Georges Southwark that is the Roman Catholic Cathedral, which was opened on 4 July 1848 (hey, that mean's it's their birthday today LOL) and was the only RC cathedral in London until Westminster Cathedral was built 50 yrs later. Since my grt grt grandfather was born c1855, St George's Southwark would have been the nearest RC cathedral for him to have been baptised in - it's situated nr the Imperial War Museum on Westminster Bridge Rd/Lambeth Rd - which would have been handy for Southwark/Lambeth residents (which is where he was from). (I think St George the Martyr is the church nr Borough station - yes, CofE). Thanks again for your help. At least I now know it's worthwhile pursuing this line of thought.

Athena Yes, an illegitimate child would be 'allowed' to be baptised in a RC Church and it would have been positively encouraged if she was a Catholic herself. She would no doubt have got a good telling off, of course, but that's beside the point - so did Anglicans, Methodists etc. Janet I didnt mean to suggest that ONLY the RCs refused access to the LDS, I know that many other denominations refused too, it seemed to be down to the Bishop of the diocese, or even individual vicars. But its my understanding that the RC Church refused point blank over all, as did the Jews and the Quakers. I understand too, that there is no requirement by law to deposit baptismal registers per se, it is the old document/archive aspect of them, rather than the actual content, which moves the law. I too have seen PRs kept in the actual Church, in a wooden chest, home to mice and beetles and damp, and watched an elderly vicar copiously licking his fingers in order to turn the pages! Indeed, in one of the WDYTYA programmes, an Irish Vicar went through the original register, back to about 1840. But reading this thread, I feel very grateful that I dont appear, as yet, to have any Irish ancestors - what a nightmare to research! OC

Athena There are TWO cathedrals at Southwark. One is Cof E and older, dating in parts back to 11 century but which did not become a cathedral until 1905 known as St Saviours and St Mary Overie. There is also another 'newer' cathedral at Southwark which is RC and called St Georges and is the mother church for the Archdiocese of Southwark so any information required would be best to write to the Diocese at Southwark, which covers the London Boroughs South of the Thames as well as Kent.. Google for address, as I cannot say what it might be offhand. Since about the 1780's people have always been able to have their children baptised as catholics whether ilegitimate or not if that has been their wish. If anything the rules may be a little tighter these days, when some priests like proof that the child is going to brought up as a catholic and that the parents are showing some signs of church going. Pre about 1780 life for Catholics was very different. Google facts on 'recusants'. Janet

Hope you don't mind me adding another question to this thread, since it is of the same vein... If a RC girl had a child out of wedlock, would that child have been baptised in the RC church still? Or is that not allowed? I just have a brick wall I am trying to break through. Cannot find any birth entry for my grt grt grandfather and believe he was possibly born out of wedlock to a RC girl. Also, someone mentioned St Georges Southwark (which is a Roman Catholic Cathedral) - how do you get information from them, since this would have been the local RC church for this family.

Old Crone Thanks for your clarification, but long experience with the RC records know that, like the Irish, they can often be a law unto themselves! To be fair, this is partly a throw back to the penal laws pre 1829.. I know one parish in Dorset who still has its baptismal records going back to the 1850's kept in a cupboard amongst the dust and dirt of the centuries! When I challenged them about the need to put these records into the local CRO they told me that there was no requirement or law which says that they have to deposit their Baptismal Records into the CRO. I have also been told by many other churches, both RC and Cof E that there is no reqirement to deposit Baptismal Records in the local CRO, marriages yes. As for Ireland and their records, you would be horrified if I told you that I have handled church records going back to the early 1800's amongst the debris of a hotel breakfast table! Be prepared for anything in Ireland! With the advent of the 1837 Act to statutely record births I suppose the need to actively record baptisms is not as necessary as it was pre 1837. Incidentally, it is not just the RC that refuse permission to the LDS to film records. One branch of my family are from Northamtonshire and would appear to be strong Cof E and none of their records are on the IGI. In fact very little of Northants is on the IGI. This may be because much of the county's people, in bygone days, were non-conformist Interesting discussion. Janet

Janet Sorry if my post was confusing. The 1975 Storage of Archives Bill states that all Church Records must be kept in storage with controlled humidity etc, other than Registers in current use. Many small local Churches cannot comply with these conditions, so their Registers are passed to 'Head Office' who take care of the storage problem, often by depositing them with a County Records Office. But many large Diocese DO have proper storage, often attached to a Cathedral etc. Now, I dont know who actually goes round all the Churches making sure the law is complied with....so its possible that many Churches dont abide by this law. The reluctance on the part of the RC Church to give out any information about baptisms etc, stems partly, I think, from the years when they were persona non grata (in England) and a paranoia that the information will be misused by other religions to steal souls. Hence the RC refusal to let the LDS film any of their records. OC

Perranmaid That is precisely what the Irish did. They came over here as Ag labs and worked on the farms during the summer to earn better money than they would get in Ireland, and then they returned to Ireland when the farm work ran out or to have their children or when winter arrived and there was no more farm work to be had. My husband has family that did that for many years and he can't find births either!! It is tricky finding ancestors when they did that but it happened all the time.They would return to Ireland to have their children baptised but did not always register the child officially. Would you if you had to walk several miles in the cold and wet with half a dozen children in tow?. Teresa All my previous suggestions have been for UK Record Offices. Ireland is a law unto itself and has no equivalent County Record Offices as the UK has, but tracing in Ireland is still possible through the six Dublin Repositories, the two Belfast Repositories and the new Roscommon GRO as well as the churches. If you want to pay for your information you can use the various Heritage Centres which are nothing like our County Record Offices in the UK. You can also join the very few Genealogical Societies. Janet

I don't want to put a dampner on this...but in IRELAND you would find Baptism, Marriage, and Burial records in the appropriate local Catholic Church but not all of these records have found their way to the Irish Records Office. Depending on the Parish Priest...he might let you see the records...if the Bishop has given premission. Others flately refuse...so I've been informed by others. I dont know why they are so secretive. My Mum was born in Dublin City in 1916...No official Birth Certificate/registration for her.....thank goodness we have her original Baptism Certificate! No offical Birth Certificates for her aunty or uncle either, born 1884 and 1879 Dublin........ even though I found one on IGI on the LDS site and I also have a copy of the Baptism Certificate for the other. So I only have records of 4 children born between 1874-1894. Only 4 children in 20 years born to a Catholic couple......I don't think so! I really wanted the Official Birth Certs. too, as that would be the only way of finding out the family's address at that time. It seems to be a bit 'hit & miss' I'm afraid. Regards....Teresa

Thankyou very much Janet. Had a study of your thread and going for a look at the other one in a minute. I have contacted the Mallow centre and paid for some research as I had found an obscure mention of a marriage about the right time and date for the aboves parents on IGI. The names of the children were very similar but as they were in England by the time some of them were baptised and each was a couple of years out I decided that it was the wrong couple but!!! Having read your thread I just wondered even though the family were labourers if they did travel back and forth to have the children baptised at home??? Although I find that hard to believe. I have discounted it for the moment. I shall continue my search and hope I can glean one clue as to thier origins. I may pay me to contact Dublin and see if they have a record of the marriage of the girls parents, but without aclue I do not hold out much hope. Thankyou again Pmaid

Perranmaid For help with Irish Ancestors I have tried to put together a First Steps Guide to IrishTracing, and there is also a thread on websites for Irish tracing. I will bump my thread up for you and endeavour to find the other one. Both threads should help you with any Irish research. Good luck. Janet

Hi Janet, Thankyou for that. I have her in 61 at home with parents. I also have 1 candidate for him and can track this individual back to 41. But in 71 I cannot find the newly weds, which is extremely frustrating. I do however have the same man above still living with his widowed mother shown as unmarried in 71. There does not appear to be any other candidates for this chap, so I do not know what is going on. I am trying to find clues as to this families Irish origins, which means hunting out every peice of info I can find which may give a clue. Names by the way are Mary Boylen father John. and John Halfpenny father Patrick married in Monkwearmouth 1867. Mary was born Ireland 1849 and is sister to my GT GT Grandfather who was born Durham 1851. Again thankyou for your very helpful input.

Perranmaid The short answer to your question is 'no', there will be no more information to be gained by writing to the Church than you already have on the Marriage Certificate. Try using the previous Census to the marriage for parents' place of birth and this would be 1861 for an 1867 marriage and if still alive at marriage then try 1871 Census. I presume you have found both bride and groom on the 1861 Census?. Janet

Many thanks for the extra info. I have the GRO cert. for a marriage and just wondered whether it would be worth writing to see if there was any extra info with regards to parents place of birth etc. held at the church, that is, if it was the brides church and not the groom's. Off to compose a letter now. Again thankyou all.

On many occasions I've had access to original RC registers at local record offices. The older ones are in Latin and so you need to be aware of the fact that names can appear to be different - eg James shows as Jacobus, Mary/Maureen/Molly as Maria. I would suggest that you check the holdings of the record office in the area where your ancestors lived.

Perranmaid Many Catholic Churches hold on to their baptismal records and do not put them into the Record Offices as there has never been any requirement for any religion to put their baptismal records into the Record Offices post 1837 and the start of Civil Registration. There are always exceptions and there may well be some Catholic Baptisms in some record offices. Pre 1837. Catholic Baptisms may be in some record offices, but remember that to practise as a Catholic pre 1829 and the Catholic Emmancipation Act, was illegal, although some leniency was there from about 1780 onwards. Many Catholics would have been baptised in C of E Churches and many more would have been baptised secretly as Catholics, and this is the reason you will find few Catholic Baptisms in Record Offices pre 1837 Catholic Marriages have to be recorded through the state system post 1837 and those records will have been sent to the GRO at Southport although Churches may keep copies and may or may not allow you access to the copies As has already been suggested, the best approach is to write to the Church concerned for details concerning baptisms, which will also give you those people who may have been sponsors/godparents at the baptisms. The Catholic Marriages will have Civil Marriage certificates post 1837 and it would be better to purchase these through the GRO Southport or any other Registration Office. If you have Catholic Ancestors back to 1700's and beyond, then you will be wanting to look at Recusant Records, which may be obtained by joining the Catholic Record Society at a cost of about £18 per year or googling 'Recusant' to see where the records may be kept. Recusant records will deal with those catholics pre about 1780. Janet

Thankyou for your advice. I will write to the church recorded for the marriage and see what happens.

Perranmaid, as far as I remember, the church records are slightly different to the legal ones. The details they record are more like the ones you would enter in your Catholic family bible. Baptisms would record godparents and marriages would also include the witnesses. As someone suggested, you need to contact your local Diocese. Locate youe nearest Catholic Church and phone the parish priest there. He will certainly be able to help you.