Genealogy Chat

see below,i want to get this direct line back further.

Birth cert states James Townsend,mmn Turner dob 12/05/1923 (and no marriage found for parents despite trawling for weeks) Death cert states James Turner otherwise James Townsend dob 12/05/1923 (indexed as James Townsend in GRO index) Informant is a brother named Townsend,but no birth ref seems to fit with the name (but dates of brother are unknown,except a possible death in 2000) Totally confused now,but James Townsend had several illegitimate children to different women,could he have been using different names to suit his circumstances? Glen

I think you need to take a few deep breaths to calm yourself down, Glen, this is the 3rd title for your message in only a few minutes! I wouldn't have thought it unusal for someone to sometimes use another surname, particularly as it was his mother's maiden name. Is this the man who died in Worksop? Whereabout was it, as I am near there? Lynn

If his parents weren't married when he was born, he could have used both names. I have a couple of male ancestors who, in the 1850's, were married giving names of both parents eg Smith alias Jones. They gave either name to census ennumerators too! maggie

Hi Lynn I'm struggling to think how to explain this. Yes it's the Worksop death cert. The main problem i have is that i know a definate daughter to James Townsend,and found the marriage for James Townsend using the mmn from his daughters birth ref. All well and good so far. The birth details in his daughters tree are very vague,but i think i have found the correct birth cert (right place but a year different) She quotes a sister as being the only sibling to James,but there isn't a birth ref for her,now the death cert uses a name for a brother,and again no matching birth ref seems to exist. Either i have the right marriage cert and the birth/death certs are for a different James, or i have the right birth/death and the wrong marriage cert (but it does match for his daughters details re mmn etc,and occupation for James would suggest a match with other documents i have ) There is a post mortem but no inquest (death was in Worksop Hospital). Really confused now,and it's a pig to explain. Glen

Glen You need to duplicate all your search efforts, using both surnames. This may sort things out. OC

I think you have managed to explain it very well, although I think it needs greater brains than mine to answer your question! Could it be that the brother's birth is registered under the name Turner rather than Townsend? Hope someone else can be of more help Lynn

Were you looking for James birth with the name Turner? Victoria

Right here goes I know the daughter is called Shiela Townsend,born 1947 in Middlesborough.Her birth ref has mmn of Stockhill. She has a trying to find post under the name Townsend (think it is pg 4 on that board under her married name.) 1945 Q4 marriage of James Townsend to Nora Stochill,Middlesborough.(15/12/1945 James aged 22). Sheila is no longer a GR member and i don't have contact details,she has recently moved and does not use GR at all (i spoke to her before Xmas but cannot contact her since moving) Her tree has James Townsend born 1924 Lincoln. The only near birth ref for James Townsend either 1924ish or Lincoln is a 1923 reference and i have that cert; DOB 12/05/1923,this is a match to the age from the marriage cert,and the fathers name is also a match.Te cert shows father as John Townsend,mother Annie Townsend formerly Turner No references for Townsend/Turner marriage with those christian names (checked 1911 to 1926.) Only sibling that appears to match with mmn af Turner is Joseph Townsend,Lincoln Q2 1925. Death cert (01/06/1984) has name of James Turner otherwise James Townsend,dob 12/05/1923,informant is John Townsend resident of Lincoln. Allied to my adoption file,the marriage cert and death cert James Townsend born 1923 would be correct,the only spoiling reference is the tree owned by his daughter which says 1924. I can't say for sure if the birth,marriage and death certs i have for James are all for the same James. Bits fit and bits don't. Glen

The only time I had this Glen was where the mother never married the father of the kids.

He is doing my pot in. It would be possible i haven't gone back far enough for the mariage,(my mum was born 1924 but her parents married in 1907). But now it seems that there may be three Townsend kids,and i can only find one possible match (James). Unless Joseph born 1925 called himself John on the death cert.There is a John Townsend born 1925,died in Lincoln in 2000. I suppose i could end up researching for Marjorie Townsend/Turner John Townsend/Turner Joseph Townsend/Turner James Townsend/Turner All based around 1924 +/- say 3 years, and with mmn of Turner Nightmare!! Glen

So does it sound reasonable to search births for the the two surnames within a three year band as a start to a potentially massive trawl. What i'm trying to do is push back to later generations (and pre 1901) but without a Townsend-Turner marriage (based on the 1923 birth cert) i don't think i can. Glen

I'll rejig the question then,apart from looking for Turner as opposed to Townsend what other options have i got to make things more clear. Would the parents register an illegitimate child whilst pretending to be married in 1923 and not register any other children? Glen

Glen, isn't it a case of only having the mother's information to the registrar as evidence of a pre 1923 marriage? If they weren't married. it would be a reason for him having 2 names. Could John & Joseph be the same? How well researched is the other lady's tree? Without being rude, if it sounds a bit vague, perhaps it is only based on what she herself has been told and assumes to be correct? I personally, however, would be chasing up all Turners and Townsends in the locality and piecing them together!!! Jay

Hi Janet The other tree has just four names,and i know two of them are 'guestimates',or at least cannot be verified by bmd index searches. (one is her mother and the place/year of birth is way out). Lincoln features heavily. 1945 Marriage cert,marriage in Middlesboro,but groom lived in Lincoln,he worked in Lincoln in the 1960's,and i was born there in the 1960's,his brother (from death cert) lived in Lincoln,and i have the 1923 Lincoln birth cert. John could be Joseph,but neither name is in this other tree.(index has Joseph with mmn Turner in Q2 1925,Lincoln) The name Marjorie is, in the other tree,but there isn't a Marjorie birth in Lincoln,and the two from the area in 1924-25 have different mmn. Just to further confuse things Marjorie married a chap (surname Goddard) who was a witness at the 1945 wedding. Glen

Have you looked at nearby reg districts? - they could have moved for a short period - most people were in rented properties. Have you tried following through small children Townsend/Turner from 1901 census to see what happened to them? (thinking possible grandparents here, but into cross-ref reg period by the time they reached adulthood.) Living in a small village, you see a lot of different situations and I know of at least 2 men who went by 2 names. One was illegitimate, the other one wasn't, but his father was, hence the change of name on marriage. His mother continued to be called Mrs W, but is buried as Mrs T, the name her son took on his marriage. Jay Jay

I've had a quick read through, so I hope this isn't duplicating what someone else has said, but... If the 1924 had been worked out by ''age at an event'' taken off ''the year of that event'', then the birthdate could easily be 1923. The same as if it were a census estimate of birth-year. Christine

Re the birth of James Other tree states Lincoln 1924 My adoption file and the 1945 wedding cert indicate 1923 I found 36 James Townsend births 1922-1924,only one being in Lincoln and that was for 1923.I ordered that cert.Father John Townsend,mother Annie Townsend,formerly Turner.(mother was informant) Both birth and marrige certs have the father named as John Townsend,labourer. With the common name it isn't conclusive but does go some way to prove a possible link. If James was born legitimately,i can't find the marriage for his parents,even though i have checked back to 1908. Proving all 3 certs are or are not for the same James is the hard bit. I wonder if the 1923 electoral role would show any difference,depends on age of Annie Townsend/Turne i suppose. Glen

Sorry to add to your confusion possibly. Is Marjorie still alive or could you find her death cert and her marriage cert to Mr Goddard or a birth cert of any of her children to see which surname she used?

George Goddard 18 Nov 1926 Nov 1996 69 North East Lincolnshire Lincolnshire View Record George Goddard 12 Jun 1924 Dec 1998 74 Lincoln Lincolnshire View Record George Goddard 10 Sep 1925 Mar 2003 77 North East Lincolnshire Lincolnshire Now if you think any of these deaths are your George's I would have to say that I like my men a little bit older than me - personal choice I know but perhaps Marjorie wasn't born that close to 1924 and Sheila just guestimated from her father's approx DOB.