Genealogy Chat

That’s really strange! I wonder how/why that could be…

The child Eileen should be on 1939 Register, as should her mother, but I have signally failed to find either of them, no matter what criteria I use

That is a coincidence nameslessone! That's great to know Rose and Horace were already living apart in 1939. Their last child together was born in 1935. So they weren't married all that long then, 10 years at most. I've tried looking in the National Archives (I realise the likelihood of records from this time is much less, but worth a go) but I don't think I'm doing it right :-D Will have a proper go when I have more time! Thanks so much once again ErikaH!

Eileen's death

FLETCHER, EILEEN FLORENCE 8
GRO Reference: 1939 D Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 2350

Referring back to my post of 11.38.

What a coincidence. Horace H Fletcher ( Staffs 1903) was married to Edith who had the same birthdate as Rose.

If her mum was still married then any birth will be in the mums married name

It doesn’t mean she gave the husband as father on the actual certificate

Purely for interest............

Name Rose Ellen May Hughes
Gender Female
Marriage Age 21
Birth Date abt 1907
Marriage Date 5 Aug 1928
Marriage Place Harrow Green, Holy Trinity, Essex, England
Father James Hughes
Spouse Horace William Fletcher...........age 20
Father Charles Edward Fletcher

....which leads me to

1939 Register
39 St George's Road, Leyton, Leyton M.B., Essex, England
Frederick Peacock 10 Mar 1860 Male Engineer Turner & Fitter Retired Widowed 31 1
Constance I E Trayler (Peacock) 02 Sep 1899 Female Restaurant Cashier Single 31 2
Caroline M Wells 06 Nov 1857 Female Dressmaker Retired Single 31 3
Horace W Fletcher 20 Jul 1908 Male Wood Machinist Married 31 4

So they were already living apart................

I found Eileen's birth.....hers was the second of the two records to which I referred.

I see Elizabeth's birth now..................Essex SW

The full names of the grandmother are posted on page one

Local papers might report on divorce case rulings, but whether they would name a corespondent is debateable.
Certainly still in late 1950s I can remember seeing divorces listed in our local paper in Hampshire.

I think it has already been said that the Baker marriage is not her.

As I said yesterday, there is nothing to stop a married woman putting her husbands name down as father of the child. I would assume the husband would have to apply to the registrar for permission to have his name removed, but in those days in would have been very difficult to do that unless he could absolutely prove he was miles away - such as serving overseas.

I also had problems with the 1939. If the E is for Edith then they might show up as Harry & Edith. Can’t quite remember where - possibly Derbyshire.

You are amazing, thank you! Yes, those records are correct. I imagine the reason you are not seeing the third daughter was because she died at around eight years old. Her name was Eileen Florence Fletcher and I can’t remember what she died of but she spent most of her life in hospital, very sad. Elizabeth Rose is still alive and Jeanette Patricia passed away as you say, in 1993.

So frustrating about the timing with the divorce records! But very strange that there is no record of anything in 1939. In my phone call with Mum today she seemed to think that her father’s name was most likely Knight. I feel that Darryl (however it’s spelt) is an unusual name for that era though?

OP's mother's birth was registered as Fletcher/Hughes, so the impression would have been given to the registrar that the husband - or ex - was her father.

Marriages Sep 1928 (>99%)
Fletcher Horace W Hughes W.Ham 4a 262
HUGHES Rose E M FLETCHER W.Ham 4a 262

Two daughters' births registered in West Ham

The eldest married in Alton district in 1949...and died in 1993

Can't identify the third one with any certainty

Can't see ANY record in 1939, which is odd................


Marriages Mar 1955 (>99%)

FLETCHER Rose E M HARWOOD Alton 6b 129
HARWOOD Phillip H HUGHES Alton 6b 129
HARWOOD Phillip H FLETCHER Alton 6b 129
HUGHES Rose E M HARWOOD Alton 6b 129

https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

However...................

The survival rate of divorce case files is:
1858-1927: almost 100%
1928-1937: 80%
After 1937: less than 0.2%

Try here:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=divorce&_dss=range&_sd=1936&_ed=1941&_ser=J%2077&id=C9685

Yes, Rose didn't marry anyone else except Horace Fletcher and Philip Harwood.

OK, just got off the phone to Mum and she told me the following:

She thinks it was Rose's divorce certificate from Horace that she saw Darryl's (or whatever his name is) name on, he was cited on it, presumably as the reason for the divorce, so she could remarry. My mother never knew Horace Fletcher at all, he and Rose were separated long before Mum was born. Mum thinks she was about six years old, not two as I previously thought, when Rose met Philip. So 'Darryl' would have had to have passed away some time between 1942 and 1948 presumably. My mum's older sister told mum that Darryl was the love of Rose's life, his sudden passing must have been devastating for her but she never spoke about it to Mum or anyone. I asked Mum if she could clarify that Darryl was from Farringdon and she said yes, she believed so.

So I'm guessing the only way I could find out Darryl's name for sure would be to try and see a copy of Rose and Horace's divorce certificate? Is that sort of thing even available anywhere? Mum's sister was born in 1935 and Mum was born in 1942 so the divorce would have happened some time in that period, give or take a few years.

The marriage to Baker is a different woman……..born 1916

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay between replies, I'm 11 hours ahead of UK time at the moment! I'll try and answer your questions as best I can :-)

I'm not sure what document my mum came across all those years ago, I think she was only about 7 years old (she's 80 now) but I'll ask her today and see if she can remember.

My aunt is still alive but they are definitely not full sisters, she is seven years older than my mum and has never had any children. Horace had many affairs throughout his marriage to Rose; one of his mistresses even turned up at their house one day telling Rose it was her own fault he strayed as she 'didn't know how to treat a man'!

Rose did indeed go on to marry Philip Harwood, he was the only man I knew as my grandad and I think they got together around 1944 or 45, my mum was only about two years old. He was 13 years younger than her which was very scandalous at the time (in addition to already being divorced and having a child out of wedlock!) so she refused to marry him for years until Philip's mother urged Rose to 'make an honest man out of him'. They stayed together until Rose passed away in 1984.

Horace did also go on to marry again, I remember finding record of that and I think it is the Elsie mentioned above, I remember thinking it was funny he ended up marrying another Hughes!

I'll talk to Mum today and see if she can potentially clarify or recollect anything. I don't want to upset her but I know she is curious about who she is and as her only child, she really is the last link I have to being able to ever have any of these questions answered. Fingers crossed, and again, thank you so much for your help!

Did Rose also marry Victor Baker in 1940?

Marriages Jun 1940 (>99%)
>>Baker Victor Fletcher Surrey Mid.E. 2a 828 Scan available - click to view
Edkins Rose F Penrose Surrey Mid.E. 2a 828 Scan available - click to view
>>Fletcher Rose E M Baker Surrey Mid.E. 2a 828 Scan available - click to view
Penrose Frederick R Edkins Surrey Mid.E. 2a 828


and Horace William?


Marriages Jun 1952 (>99%)
Davidson George W Sear Essex S.W. 5a 448 Scan available - click to view
FLETCHER Elsie M FLETCHER Essex S.W. 5a 448 Scan available - click to view
FLETCHER Horace W FLETCHER Essex S.W. 5a 448 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
FLETCHER Horace W STEVENS Essex S.W. 5a 448 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
FLETCHER Horace W HUGHES Essex S.W. 5a 448 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
HUGHES Elsie M FLETCHER Essex S.W. 5a 448 Scan available - click to view
SEAR Enid M DAVIDSON Essex S.W 5a 448 Scan available - click to view
Stevens Elsie M Fletcher Essex S.W 5a 448 Scan available - click to view

EDIT This has been proved to be a different Rose marrying Victor Baker so please disregard this.

If theAunt is no longer alive and you decide to go down the dna route then one of your Aunts children would do.

Added: it ,looks as though Rose married again , to Philip Harwood in 1955.
Ancestry gives this in her maiden name but freebmd states it shows as Hughes or Fletcher.