Genealogy Chat

Hi I am so confused about who is who in this family but I am at my son's home in Cornwall at the moment but I will look into it in more detail when I get home ??

Sarah's birth:

ROBINSON, SARAH mmn THORNTON
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 389


Marriages Mar 1888 (>99%)
ROBINSON Frederick Alonzo Nottingham 7b 310a
THORNTON Elizabeth Annie Nottingham 7b 310a


However, that's no help with how Albert and Annie Thornton might be Thomas's grandparents.

Heading off at a bit of a tangent - this looks like Sarah, the niece, in 1939:

Sarah Caffrey
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Sarah Caffrey
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Birth Date 9 Mar 1890
Residence Date 1939
Address 70 Landcroft Cres
Residence Place Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Occupation Lace Dresser <<<<<<
Line Number 1
Schedule Number 34
Sub Schedule Number 2
Enumeration District Rmae
Borough Nottingham
Registration district 1
Household Members (Name) Gender
James Caffrey Male
Sarah Caffrey Female
James Caffrey - Male - 21 April 1927



Marriages Jun 1907 (99%)
CAFFREY James Nottingham 7b 719
ROBINSON Sarah Nottingham 7b 719

??
Births Mar 1927 (>99%)
Robinson James P Robinson Basford 7b 339


The nurse children in 1911 census:

CAFFREY, LILY mmn ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 358

CAFFERY, KATE mmn ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 330

As I suggested on 8 Aug at 19:54, I think this is that couple in 1911.
They have a son with them - but I can find no other record of him - not even his birth.
And how can unmarried Jane Dale be Albert Thornton's sister?

Albert Thornton
in the 1911 England Census
Name Albert Thornton
Age in 1911 31
Estimated Birth Year abt 1880
Relation to Head Head
Gender Male
Birth Place Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish Nottingham
County/Island Nottinghamshire
Country England
Street Address 7 Page Street Off Mortimer Street Nottingham
Marital Status Married
Occupation Carter
Registration District Number 430
Sub-registration district Nottingham South West
ED, institution, or vessel 20
Piece 20509
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Albert Thornton 31 Head
Annie Eliza Thornton 27 Wife
Jane Dale 15 Sister - single
Sarah Caffery 21 Niece - married - Lace dresser
John Thomas Thornton Ushon 11 Son
Kate Caffery 3 Child - nurse child
Lily Caffery 1 Child - nurse child

All born Nottingham

"Whose sister?"

The sister (Annie Elizabeth) of Thomas, the child born in the workhouse in 1917.

Shirley is only partly correct.

Their mother (or supposed mother) Elizabeth May is listed as "boarder", and Annie Elizabeth is listed as "boarder's child".
Thomas is listed as "grandson".

In the "Marriage or Orphanhood" column it says "Father dead" for Thomas, and has ditto marks in that column against Annie's name.

As both were illegitimate births, I assume that "Father dead" is invented for respectability - though of course might be true.

The fact that Thomas is "grandson" but Annie is "boarder's child" suggests to me that Thomas was not Elizabeth May's child - unless it's just what the enumerator wrote, whether rightly or wrongly.

I don't see a marriage for the supposed grandparents - at least not if the wife's maiden name was Scott, which suggests they might be Thomas's father's parents.

Albert Thornton, 43, Nottingham, general labourer (out of work), and Annie E Thornton, 38, Nottingham.

Whose sister?

Also, I think that whether or not a parent was deceased was recorded only for under16’s……….can’t at the moment verify that

Against the record of Thomas in 1921 it says “father dead “

But the sister is listed as boarder implying she had a different father

The story may be true .

As has been said, it's unlikely that the hospital official would have been the informant if the person leaving with the baby was not the one who had given birth to the child.

However, as Linda's grandmother (born November 1901, per Linda) would only have been 15 when the baby was conceived, and only just 16 when he was born in December 1917 , if she was the mother she may well have felt unable or unwilling to bring up a baby.

Her sister (born May 1900) would have been 17.5 when the baby was born, so perhaps the sisters had agreed that she would "adopt" him, and therefore L's grandmother gave her sister's name when she was admitted to the hospital, to avoid any paperwork difficulties later.

If the sister came to the hospital to meet the mother and child when they were discharged, she may indeed have been the person who then physically "took him out of the workhouse".

Admittedly, that just speculation!

Linda has been in touch with Nottingham Archives, and they can look up the records for her, for a fee.

Unfortunately, if someone told untruths which were recorded by the authorities as fact, there is probably no way of proving/disproving them.

She seems to have kept him, whether or not she was his mother, as they were living in the same household in 1921, along with grandparents.

If it is all true ( and we’ve all had family stories disproved) I wonder if the older sister was in a position where she could leave her own workhouse and collected the baby so that he didn’t stay in one.

I've PM'd you Thomas's marriage and death records, and births of possible children.

His sister (or half-sister) died unmarried in 1999 in Nottingham.

Thank you very much to you all for your help the information about the boy came from my aunt the things I know about the event is my grandmother was in the workhouse in 1911 census and her sister Elizabeth was in a different one and was 17 when Thomas was born the address were she lived at the time was Euston square walker street but I have learn from someone on the forum in1921 census she lived at Pembroke place walker street in Nottingham the only marriage for Elizabeth was in 1926 to George Bradbury and a son born 1929 but I know nothing about Thomas or his sister Annie

There are no online records for Bagthorpe Workhouse/Hospital.
records are held by Nottinghamshire Archives.

Linda sent me the child's name - now deceased, but I won't post his name here unless Linda wants that.
Born 1917.
In 1921 he's with the mother per the birth cert (still unmarried), an illegitimate sister (or half-sister, perhaps), and a couple who are supposedly his grandparents (he's listed as "grandson".)
Different surname, so if they really are his grandparents they must be his father's parents.
In 1911 they have a child aged 11, described as "son", but there's no birth or other record of him.

But in any case, there's nothing online to confirm who the 1917 child's mother was.

Oh yes, so she did.
The fact that there's no father's name on the cert (from Linda's PM) indicates that the sister was definitely not married.

If she had been married, and "adopting" the child, and naming herself as the mother, I think her husband would have been named as the "father".
(Well, unless he wasn't in favour of the idea.)

Hence, my suspicion that the sister was actually the mother, and had lied about her name in the workhouse.

The story that Linda's grandmother was the mother may have started as part of the sister's cover-up - but then you would think that L's grandmother would have denied it.
This raises more questions - for instance - were the sisters on good terms?
Linda says "it was said" that her grandmother was the mother - said by whom?

Linda said in her post at 10.15 that she didn't think the sister was married...........................

PM from Linda this morning said that the sister was only 17 herself, and that the name of "a boss at the workhouse at Bagthorpe" [Notts.] was on the cert .

I assume he/she was the informant.

Linda didn't say if the sister was married or not.

I replied to Linda's PM, asking for more info. She has opened it, but not replied so far.

The DOB could,potentially, be as false as the mother is said to be.

Was the older sister already married, otherwise it would be too odd for one unmarried sister to hand over her baby to another unmarried sister.

At one time unmarried mothers were considered to be mentally unstable and put into institutions. So it could be interesting to see how long it was before your grandmother had her next child.

How soon after the DoB was the birth registered?

Who was the informant? And what was his/her address?

Perhaps the sister was actually the mother.

Only workhouse admission/discharge records would clarify that .

Unless she lied about her name on admission!