Genealogy Chat

Yes, I wondered about the watchman & iron turner. One was his trade, could the other have been just a job. Had he been laid off or an injury that meant he couldn’t carry out his trade.
Face saving is quite possible - we all know the stories of ‘bigging’ oneself up for official paperwork.
Sometimes, with the census, it is the collector at fault. I have this with a large family of difficult names, and quite often it seems it is easier just to ditto the places of birth.

Idly browsing around the Higgins/McCormick family -

An 1867 marriage was posted earlier, for John Higgins and Ellen McCormick, in Ireland.

But the mechanic/iron turner's family are on the 1861 census in Chorlton, with daughter Catherine born 1860 in Hulme (Chorlton birth already posted) and son James, apparently born Hulme 1859:

John Higgins
in the 1861 England Census
Name John Higgins
Gender Male
Age 30
Relation Head
Estimated Birth Year 1831
Spouse's Name Ellen Higgins
Where born Ireland
Civil parish Hulme
Ecclesiastical parish St George
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district Chorlton
Sub-registration district Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel 37
Neighbors
Household schedule number 332
Piece 2894
Folio 98
Page number 49
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John Higgins 30 Head - mechanic driller, Ireland
Ellen Higgins 9 Wife - Ireland
James Higgins 2 Son - Hulme, Lancs
Catharine Higgins 1 Daughter - Hulme

Therefore I think this is the correct marriage for John and Ellen:

Marriages Sep 1853 (>99%)
HIGGINS John Chorlton 8c 609
McCORMICK Ellen Chorlton 8c 609


Possible birth of James, with mmn misheard, mis-spelled , or mistranscribed???

HIGGINS, JAMES mmn MCCONN
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 553

Yes, I'm sure the iron turner and the mechanic are the same man.
But watchman in 1890, when he's still an iron turner in 1891?

However, there's always human error, possible face-saving, and informant's knowledge to take into account, so who knows?!

The mechanic could easily be the iron turner as this was done on a machine and the term mechanic was used for someone that used a machine.

The family on the 1881 census posted on 2nd August is clearly that of the man to whom the newspaper article refers................although it would be helpful to know your connection............if there is one!

Don't rely on other trees for info..............do your own careful research.

You say, "I have possible 13 children for this couple".

Which couple?

ADDED:
Ah, I see - it's the Higgins/McCormick couple.

HIGGINS, MARY ANN mmn MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 200

HIGGINS, JOHN MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 214

HIGGINS, DOMNICK MCCARTHY MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 457

HIGGINS, WILLIAM MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 187

HIGGINS, ELIZABETH JANE MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 96

HIGGINS, HARRIET MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 205

HIGGINS, MICHAEL MCCORMACK
GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH UNION Volume 07A Page 89

HIGGINS, MARY MCCORMACK
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH UNION Volume 07A Page 108

HIGGINS, CATHERINE MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 627

These are the only Higgins/McCormick (or alternative spelling) births which I can see in 1859-79, and without having tried to check with censuses, etc, I'm pretty sure they're not all the same family.

Dominick and Harriet are certainly not siblings.

Thank you all for these replies. On a couple of family trees the father is given a different death date.
John Higgins seems to have been born in Cork, and he and his brother arrived as 'teenagers' in Salford , a city before Manchester !
The name is not uncommon.
I have possible 13 children for this couple, but might be missing a couple . Starting with James born in 1859 and the last one Mary Ann 1879, This would make the mother 47, Not impossible but likely the child to be a grandchild? registered as hers.
I have not confirmed the Burial of John Higgins , but seems likely to be 1904 at a RC burial Manchester general cemetery - non conformists.
The watchman occupational shown on both girls in the same year is perhaps a temp job-
In 1890 census he is an Iron turner.- all engineering trades.

There is a report of a fracas in 1881 =

1881
791: VIOLENT ATTACK ON BAILIFFS AT SALFORD.
John Higgins, mechanic, 10, Joule-street, Ordsall-lane, Salford, was charged with assaulting
Edward H. Urquhart, 8, Bangor-street, Broughton, and John Patterson, bailiffs of the Salford County Court, whilst in the execution of their duty. ?
Mr. W. G. Rawes, defended the prisoner.

Feedback from Margaret needed....................

maybe he changed jobs

That birth and 1891 already posted .

Living next door to Ramscars is a good point.
But that John Higgins is an iron turner in 1891, not a watchman as in 1890.

He was a mechanic in 1881 and 1884, and a "calico printer [something beginning with M] tenter" in 1871.

It's just the occupation which seems to be the stumbling block.

Elizabeth Jane ?????
Country England
Last name Higgins
Volume 8D
Birth quarter 2
Page 96
Birth year 1873
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Mother's maiden name McCormick
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
District Salford
Subcategory Civil Births
County Lancashire

1891
1891 England Census
View image
View record
Record details
Name John Higgins
Gender Male
Age 59
Relationship Head
Birth Year 1832
Spouse Ellen Higgins
Birth Place Ireland
Civil parish Salford
Ecclesiastical parish St Philip
Residence Place Salford, Lancashire, England
Registration district Salford
Sub registration district Regent Road
ED, Institution or Vessel 6
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 3220
Folio 23
Household membersName Age
John Higgins 59
Ellen Higgins 59

living next door to william and elizabeth j ramscar

from lancashire on line parish clerks

Marriage: 15 Nov 1890 St Mark, Hulme, Lancashire, England
William Lawrence Ramscar - 26, Sheet-Maker, Bachelor, 5 Owen Street
Elizabeth Jane Higgins - 18, Machinist, Spinster, 5 Owen Street
Groom's Father: James Holt Ramscar, Engineer
Bride's Father: John Higgins, Watchman
Witness: Edward Higgins; Emily Elvina Reynolds
Married by Banns by: C. S. Rowland Curate
Register: Marriages 1883 - 1891, Page 239, Entry 478
Source: LDS Film 2357303

Marriage: 25 Dec 1890 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England
James Shaw - 21, Carter, Bachelor, 5 Lambert Street
Margaret Ann Higgins - 21, Weaver, Spinster, 23 Lambert Street
Groom's Father: Samuel Shaw, Brick Setter
Bride's Father: John Higgins, Watchman
Witness: Henry Beasley; Annie Shaw, (X)
Married by Banns by: William Cole
Register: Marriages 1888 - 1892, Page 125, Entry 250
Source: LDS Film 1786368

There still needs to be some sort of ‘trail’, otherwise it's total nonsense

You don’t need to be related to research someone from the past. There could be a myriad of reasons.

How did you come to be looking at these records?

Which of the people concerned is your PROVEN line?

I'm not sure if that's the right family for Elizabeth -

Her father is a watchman in 1890.
But the man in the census is a "calico printer [something beginning with M] tenter" in 1871, a mechanic in 1881 and at son Edward's marriage in 1884, and an iron turner in 1891.

Not that I've found a more convincing family!


Can't see a Margaret Ann with father John who's a watchman either.

I suggest that Margaret and Elizabeth are not sisters.
As they married in the same year, I would have expected them to have been married in the same church if they were sisters.

Name John Higgins
Gender Male
Marital Status Single
Marriage Date 03 Aug 1867
Marriage Place Longford, Ireland
Father Francis Higgins
Spouse Ellen Mccormick
FHL Film Number 101515
Reference ID Page 198 line 10

HIGGINS, ELIZABETH JANE MCCORMICK
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 96

1891 census
Name John Higgins
Gender Male
Age 59
Relationship Head
Birth Year 1832
Birth Place Ireland
Civil parish Salford
Ecclesiastical parish St Philip
Residence Place Salford, Lancashire, England
Registration district Salford
Sub registration district Regent Road
ED, Institution or Vessel 6
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 3220
Folio 23
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John Higgins 59 Head
Ellen Higgins
59 Wife

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
8, Half Street, Salford, Lancashire, England
James Shaw Head Married Male 31 1870 General labourer Salford, Lancashire, England
Margaret A Shaw Wife Married Female 31 1870 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth J Shaw Daughter Single Female 0 1901 - Salford, Lancashire, England

SHAW, ELIZABETH JANE HIGGINS
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 120

Name James Shaw
Gender Male
Marriage Age 21
Event Type Marriage
Birth Year abt 1869
Marriage Date 25 Dec 1890
Marriage Place Salford, Christchurch, Lancashire, England
Father Samuel Shaw
Spouse Margaret Ann Higgins......address, 23, Lambert Street


Neither woman witnessed the marriage of the other.

Name Elizabeth Jane Higgins
Gender Female
Marriage Age 18
Event Type Marriage
Birth Year abt 1872
Marriage Date 15 Nov 1890
Marriage Place Hulme, St Mark, Manchester, England
Father John Higgins
Spouse William Lawrence Ramocan
Reference Number M320/5/2/5
Archive Roll 814

One of the witnesses was Edward Higgins


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
10, Joule Street, Salford, Lancashire, England
John Higgins Head Married Male 47 1834 Mechanic (undef) Ireland
Ellen Higgins Wife Married Female 49 1832 - Ireland
James Higgins Son Single Male 22 1859 Mechanic (undef) Manchester, Lancashire, England
Edward Higgins Son Single Male 19 1862 Roller coverer (ctn) Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Higgins Son Single Male 15 1866 Assistant to oilcloth printer (printer) Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Higgins Daughter Single Female 11 1870 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Higgins Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England