Genealogy Chat

Thanks Keith. An interesting document!!

I've PM'd you with a "probate" record for an intestate.
You're probably right that it's not probate as legally understood, but it is issued by Probate Registry.

She was a married woman - her 'estate' if there was one, would have gone to her husband if she didn't make a Will

If she made one, and it didn't need to be proved, there will be NO record, as it won't have been 'lodged' with the Probate service

Not sure how probate can be granted if there isn't a Will

Probate is the proving a pre-existing document.

Masses of info online

I've just seen your post of the rest of the Mephams. Herbert was Phyllis' father, John Herbert and Ronald Ernest Phyllis' siblings.

Yes, I'd found the GRO for Phyllis' birth ages ago.

Thank you for the information about wills / probate.

I recall having found a probate record for someone who died intestate. Is that not normal, that someone has to be officially responsible for sorting out the deceased effects?

1939 Register
73 Russell Road, Woking, Woking U.D., Surrey, England

Isaac Mepham 01 Dec 1892 Male Baker Married 172 1
Ethel Mepham 06 Dec 1892 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 172 2
The record for this person is officially closed.
Daphne J Harding (Mepham) 09 Feb 1927 Female At School Single 172 4

1921

John Herbert
Mepham
1920
Surrey, England
Chobham
Chertsey
Surrey

Matilda May
Mepham
1898
Surrey, England
Chobham
Chertsey
Surrey

Herbert
Mepham
1896
Surrey, England
Chobham
Chertsey
Surrey

Isaac
Mepham
1892
Chobham, Surrey, England
Chobham
Chertsey
Surrey

Margaret
Mepham
1853
Bisley, Surrey, England
Chobham
Chertsey
Surrey

MEPHAM, PHYLLIS MARGARET WESTON
GRO Reference: 1922 D Quarter in CHERTSEY Volume 02A Page 110

You can ONLY see info about Wills if they exist and go to PROBATE

Look for the woman’s birth on the GRO to confirm second forename

Thank you (again!) ErikaH.
The house sale in 2015 is commensurate with Eric dying that year.
There is this possible / probable death:
MARTIN, PHYLLIS MARGARET 1922
GRO Reference: DOR Q3/2014 in SURREY (759-1I) Entry Number 510547941
Which would explain why Phyllis was not mentioned in Eric's will. But I've had no luck yet finding a will for Phyllis - even if she died intestate surely there should be a record somewhere?
I've ordered the death certificate which may confirm that it's the right person.

Dissolved is the legal description of divorce

The house in Woking was sold in July 2015

You have looked for her death using the GRO site, I trust?

The marriage certificate arrived today. All the entries were typed, I think this is the first time I've seen a certificate where the entries are not handwritten.

The certificate confirms I've got the right Eric Keith Martin and shows Maria Helene Jirovetz as being the daughter of Wenzel Jirovetz.

Some press clipping about the marriage suggest that her parents were still in Austria at the time of the marriage, 1951.

I have so far failed to find any trace of Maria before or after her marriage to Eric. I suppose it might be possible that she returned to Austria?

Eric's subsequent marriage to Phyllis 1980 says his previous marriage was "dissolved". I don't know whether this is the same as being divorced, or the marriage being annulled, or something else.

Eric died in 2015, his will / probate records identify his two daughters from his first marriage (born 1952 & 1955) but make no mention of Phyllis - which I find odd. They were apparently together in Woking up to 2013 according to the ERs.

I haven't found a death record for Phyllis.

And thank you too, greyghost, probate ordered!

Brilliant, alviegal, thank you!

I've tried numerous times to find information in the papers and poor OCRing has nearly always defeated me. Others here - including yourself - must have magic fingers ;-)

Many, many thanks!

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/search-results

To go with the death record put up by ErikaH yesterday

Last name First name Date of death Date of probate Probate number Document type Registry office
MARTIN ERIC KEITH 29 January 2015 14 April 2015 4537473 ADMON/WILL Winchester Add to basket

16 Council Houses>> Carpenters Lane<<, Hadlow, Tonbridge R.D., Kent, England

Household members (4 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth date Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule sub number
John J Martin 05 Jun 1881 Male School Caretaker Married 295 1
Lily E Martin 18 Jan 1886 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 295 2
John E Martin 08 Apr 1920 Male Estimating Clerk W? Works Single 295 3

The record for this person is officially closed.



Former caretaker at the village school. 77-year-Old Mr. John James Martin. of 16. Carpenters Lane. died on Friday. He served in the Royal Navy for 22 years and was the holder of the D.C.M. and the M.M. He was caretaker at the school for 15 years and had lived in the village for 27 years, coming from Tonbridge. He leaves a widow, 2 sons and 2 daughters. The funeral took place at Hadlow on Wednesday.

31 October 1958 - Kent & Sussex Courier - Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England

MARRIAGE LARTIN—JIROVETZ. On the 22nd September. 1951. at Corpus Christi Church. Tonbrldge. by the Rev. Father Taggart. Eric Keith. son of Mr. and Mrs J Martin of Carpenters Lane, Hadlow to Maria Helene, daughter of Mr and Mrs W Jirovetz of Gratz, Austria.

28 September 1951 - Kent & Sussex Courier - Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England


Sevenoaks Chronicle and Kentish Advertiser 28 September 1951

This reports he was the youngest son.
Her dress was of ivory cloque, she carried red roses and she was given away by Mr V Powys.
Misses Joan Martin and Madeleine Cook were attendants along with Miss Brenda Richards. Best man was John Davies.

The 1956 one in Surrey was reported in the papers.

Bride was Susan Mary Twyford, daughter of Mr & Mrs Richard Twyford of Southwold.

He was MD of Waveney Apple Growers. He had been in the RAF during the war and his father was killed in WW1. His bedridden mother lived in Henfield.

West Sussex Gazette 30 August 1956

Hence the question about witnesses ;-) ;-)

That is an interesting discovery, thank you Erika. Following that line of thinking makes one of the possible marriages highly probable. I've already ordered that marriage certificate, I'll follow it up.