Genealogy Chat

Yet it's Margaret Brownbill, nee McCamley with the 'blacksmith' father, who is the sponser of James Daley, parents James Daley and Mary McCamley, who don't seem to have an official marriage on record.

I am really struggling with this one, as both brides came from Vauxhall Rd, so that points to a connection, but that bride is recorded as 10 yrs older than Margaret's sister, and Mary Dailey were in 1851 and 1861.

Feel like I'm swimming in treacle - lot of effort, but little progress...

marys marriage in 1854 records her father james as a labouer whereas margrets marriage in 1855 records james as a blacksmith
henrys marriage in 1861 records him as a labourer

David
Spouse's birth year 1829
Last name Martin
Spouse's marital status Spinster
Age 27
Spouse's residence Vauxhall Road
Birth year 1827
Spouse's father's first name(s) James
Occupation Labourer
Spouse's father's last name McCamley
Marital status Bachelor
Spouse's father's occupation Labourer
Year 1854
Witness 1 John Stevenson
Marriage year 1854
Witness 2 Catherine Barns
Marriage date 09 Jun 1854
County Lancashire
Place Bevington, St Alban
Country England
Denomination Church Of England
Archive Liverpool Record Office
Diocese Liverpool
Archive reference 283-ALB-3-1
Residence Vauxhall Road
Register type Marriages
Father's first name(s) James
Register year range 1850-1867
Father's last name Martin
Record set Lancashire Banns & Marriages
Father's occupation Labourer --------------
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's first name(s) Mary
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Spouse's last name McCamley
Collections from England, Great Britain
Spouse's age 25

It's Mary McCamley that is the issue. The Mary who ended up with James Dailey, and mother of little James Daley bap in 1861 with sponser Margaret Brownbill, was only aged 20 in 1861, and aged 11 in 1851 when with her family.

So she would only have been 15 or so when/if she married David Martin in1854, which makes it seem that she was a different Mary McCamley.

But both Mary McCamley who married David Martin, and Margaret McCamley who married William Brownbill, gsve a fathers name as James McCamley, and an address as Vauxhall Rd, so would seem to be linked.

according to this she was a minor so plausible

Margaret
Spouse's marital status Bachelor
Last name McCamley
Spouse's residence Hornby St
Age Minor -------------------------
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Marital status Spinster
Spouse's father's last name Brownhill
Year 1855
Spouse's father's occupation Labourer
Marriage year 1855
Witness 1 Robert Brownhill
Marriage date 22 Apr 1855
Witness 2 Catherine Brownhill
Place Liverpool, St Peter
County Lancashire
Denomination Church Of England
Country England
Diocese Liverpool
Archive Liverpool Record Office
Residence Vauxhall Road
Archive reference 283-PET-3-51
Father's first name(s) James
Register type Marriages
Father's last name McCamley
Register year range 1855-1855
Father's occupation Blacksmith
Record set Lancashire Banns & Marriages
Spouse's first name(s) William
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's last name Brownhill
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Spouse's age Full
Collections from England, Great Britain
Spouse's occupation Labourer

she was 26 on the 1861 cesus with a 3 year old daughter

Hmm,

Mary McCamley, aged 25, of Vauxhall Rd, daur of James McCamley married a David Martin in a C of E ceremony at St Albans, Bevington, Liverpool.

Margaret McCamley daur of James who married William Brownbill at St Peter's in 1855, and was a sponsor at the baptism of James Daly son of Jacobi Daley and Mariae McCamley in 1861, was also of Vauxhall Road.

If Mary was already married to David Martin, then she would not have been free to marry John/James Daly.

BUT, Mary would only have been aged about 15 in 1854, not 25...



:-( :-S

In census 1851 there is a Mary McCamley born c1840, Liverpool Lancs ( as per Mary Dailey in census 1861).

She is living in a Court in Chisenhale St , Vauxhall, which is the area where Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette is.

James McCamley c1791 Bricklayer' lab, born Ireland
Margaret McCamley c1803, wife, born Ireland
Francis McCamley, son, c1829 Liverpool
Hugh McCamley, son, c1831 Liverpool
James Mc Camley son, c1834 Liverpool
MARGARET McCamley, daur c1837 Liverpool
MARY McCamley, daur c1840 Liverpool
Henry McCamley, son, c1844 Liverpool

Note two occurrences of the name Margaret ( the sponsor on Sarah Daly's baptism in 1859 was recorded as Margaret Daly)

Margaret McCamley daur of James McCamley married William Brownbill in 1855 in a C of E ceremony (liverpool cof e marriages and banns on ancestry)

Margaret Brownbill is the sponsor for James Daley son of Jacobi Daley and Mariae McCauley in 1861.

Is there any chance, given the muddlesome nature of the baptism record for Sarah Daly in the same location in 1859, Margaret Brownbill nee McCamley was also the sponsor, and ended up recorded as Margaret Daly?

Maybe the recorder had been drinking...?

I do realise this is a total reach, and is totally circumstantial.

Re Maddie's 15:35 comment, that's kinda what I was wondering, but again, so hard to 'prove' these things. :-)

Some things are hard to prove; it is a baptism in Liverpool in 1859, which I assume tallies with Sara Gibson's birth location and age in censuses.

It is also a Catholic baptism, and Sarah Daly married Joseph Gibson in a Catholic ceremony, and their children were also baptised Catholics.

On the other hand Daley and variants looks likely to be a name of Irish origin, and there were quite a few of them in Liverpool.

I have found the GRO index unhelpful in this case, possibly down to variations in name, or, as penalties for non registration were yet to be introduced, the birth(s) might have gone unregistered.

i think and probably wrong that bapt is messed up, maria's name put in fathers space and where mothers name should be entry scored out, cant see underneath

That's why I asked the question about proof that the baptism and marriage were for the same person. Unclear response

Hi Maddie,

According to census 1861, and the baptism, little James was born in Jan 1861, or at least, early 1861, so unlikely to have had birth registered in 3rd qtr 1861.

Struggling to find a marriage for either James or John to a Mary McCamley. She was supposedly only 20 in 1861, so unlikely to have been before mid 1850s at the earliest.

EDIT, still have the issue as to why, if the Sarah baptised 1859 does belong to this family, her mother Mary was apparently single, but going by the name Daly rather than McCamley.

Possible 1871 for Sarah posted at 11.43. Posted hasn't commented

son james
James
Country England
Last name Daley
Volume 8B
Birth quarter 3
Page 132
Birth year 1861
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Mother's maiden name Doolan
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
District Liverpool
Subcategory Civil Births
County Lancashire

Jacobus
County Lancashire
Last name Daley
Country England
Birth year 1861
Archive Liverpool Record Office
Birth date 17 Jan 1861
Archive reference 282/REC/1/2
Baptism year 1861
Document type Baptisms
Baptism date 24 Jan 1861
Records year range 1859-1863
Church Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette
Page 215
Parish Liverpool, Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette
Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Diocese Liverpool
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Father's first name(s) James Or Jacob
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Mother's first name(s) Mariae
Collections from England, Great Britain
Mother's last name McCamley


© Findmypast

Kucinta

ancestry hints show him as john in other records
eg
Name: John Daley
Age: 76
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Death Registration Place: West Derby, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Death Date: Jun 1914
Inferred Death Place: Lancashire, United Kingdom
Volume: 8b
Page: 386

srah not with tem in 1871

?????


Can't c & p as on my tablet, apologies for that in advance, Erika

THIS MAY BE A COMPLETE RED HERRING but...

Ancestry has an 1861 census entry for

James Dailey, STONE MASON, aged 22, born Liverpool, Lancs
***MARY Dailey aged 20, wife, born Liverpool, Lancs
**SARAH Dailey aged 2 (c 1859), daur, born Liverpool, Lancs
James Dailey, son, aged 7 weeks, born 1861, Liverpool, Lancs

Cant quite read address, it looks like 38, Kew or New St, but could be something else.

Ancestry Liverpool England , Catholic baptisms ,has this baptism

Jacobus Daley
(James Daley)
Born 17th Jan 1861
Bap 24th Jan 1861
Father Jacobi Daley
Mother Mariae Mccamley
Baptised at Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette, the very same church where Sarah daur of Mary/Maria was baptised, as detailed in Colin's opening post.

Obviously the name of the stonemason father is James, not John, as per the marriage cert, but I thought I'd throw it in the mix anyway...

Hope it's not too serious

Wind damage in my garden back when possible

Have the certificate

How do you know that the baptism you have found is for the woman who married Gibson?

Is there some proof?

Sarah
Spouse's occupation Plasterer
Last name Daley
Spouse's marital status Bachelor
Age 19
Spouse's residence St Home St
Birth year 1858
Spouse's father's first name(s) Thomas
Marital status Spinster
Spouse's father's last name Gibson
Year 1877
Spouse's father's occupation Plasterer
Marriage year 1877
Witness 1 Thomas Bewich
Marriage date 29 Apr 1877
Witness 2 Rabella Gibson
Place Liverpool, St Peter
County Lancashire
Denomination Church Of England
Country England
Diocese Liverpool
Archive Liverpool Record Office
Residence St Home ST
Archive reference 283-PET-3-88
Father's first name(s) John ------------
Register type Marriages
Father's last name Daley
Register year range 1877-1877
Father's occupation Stone Mason
Record set Lancashire Banns & Marriages
Spouse's first name(s) Joseph
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's last name Gibson
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Spouse's age 21
Collections from England, Great Britain
Spouse's birth year 1856