Genealogy Chat

????

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
High Street, Barnes, Richmond upon Thames, Surrey, England

Household members (8 people)
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Thomas Man Male 30 1811 -
Harriet Man Female 30 1811 -
Thomas Man Male 10 1831 -
Robert Man Male 5 1836 -
Ellen Man Female 5 1836 -
James Man Male 4 1837 -
William Man Male 2 1839 Surrey, England
Harriet Man Female 0 1841 Surrey, England

The Thomas baptised in 1831 in West Tarring is resident in Bexley, Kent. His father is a traveller.
The image can be seen on https://www.familysearch.org/

EDIT His abode is Bexley, Kent.

PM’s exchanged. Asked Caroline to respond on here………….a couple of hours ago

Ancestry's transcription of that 1881 census posted by ErikaH at 12:38 says that Thomas's birthplace was Farrier, Sussex, but looking at the image, it could be Tarring.

??
Thomas Mann
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Thomas Mann
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 2 Feb 1831
Baptism Place: West Tarring, Sussex, England
Father: Thomas Mann
Mother: Harriet
FHL Film Number: 2147007
Reference ID: 43

Doesn't help, though, as I don't see any other record for him.



Re Harriet who married Henry Stedman - birth given as 1857, 1861, 1860, 1861 in censuses after marriage.
Birthplace always Whitechapel.

But if she really was "of full age" in 1875, she should have been born in 1854 or earlier

Looking at the 1875 marriage - the witnesses also witnessed the marriage between Sarah Ann Mitchell and Henry Charles Willing on the same day, so they may be totally unconnected

Posting ONLY because of the occupation......can't find ANY other definite records for this trio

1881
19, Essex Street, Mile End Old Town, London & Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Head Married Male 53 1828 Hawker Sussex, England
Sally Mann Wife Married Female 54 1827 - St George in the East, Middlesex, England
John Chapman Grand son Single Male 11 1870 - St George in the East, Middlesex, England

No, it can't be. Her line is STEDMAN

Oh that's mixed things up a bit ErikaH! So this family which is not the one that Caroline is looking for.

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
42, Nelson Street, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (4 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Rich Cole Head
Married Male 27 1854 General cabinet maker Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Harriet Cole Wife
Married Female 26 1855 Household duties Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
George Percy Cole Son
Single Male 3 1878 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Alfred Walter Cole Son
Single Male 1 1880 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

THIS is the marriage of the daughter of Thomas Mann, TOY MAKER

Name: Harriet Mann
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1854
Marriage Date: 8 Dec 1873
Marriage Place: St Andrew, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: Thomas Mann.....TOY MAKER
Spouse: William Richard Cole
Register Type: Parish Register

First name(s) Harriet
County Hertfordshire
Last name Stedman
Country England
Age 58
Record set Hertfordshire Burials
Birth year 1859
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Burial year 1917
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 28 Dec 1917
Collections from England, Great Britain
Place Hatfield

Address was Mill Green.

1911 census shows she had had 15 children!!! 4 of whom had died.

Thanks - I did mean the 1875 one.

First name(s) Henry James
County Hertfordshire
Last name Stedman
Country England
Age 59
Record set Hertfordshire Burials
Birth year 1850
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Burial year 1909
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 18 Sep 1909
Collections from England, Great Britain
Place Hatfield

Address was Church Army Rest, same as the 1911 census for Harriet.

ErikaH, Thomas and Eliza were both in Cock Lane on the MC, no numbers.

If it's Henry and Harriet's Mc, then it just says Bethnal Green.

In 1881, Thomas Mann, Bethnal Green, was still a TOY MANUFACTURER, as he was in 1871

Is there an address for the bride on the marriage cert?

Name: Eliza Bulfoy
Gender: Female
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 20 Apr 1840
Marriage Place: St Leonard, Shoreditch, Hackney, England
Father:
Wm Bulfoy
Spouse:
Thomas Mann
Register Type: Parish Register

They were both of full age and both of Cock Lane. He was a turner, father was Hugh, a revenue officer.
She was a machine winder, father William, a weaver was deceased.
She made her mark, he signed. Hugh Mann and Mary? were witnesses.

MANN, JOHN JOSEPH BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 341
MANN, CHARLOTTE BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 311
MANN, ANN BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 331
MANN, LOUISA BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 337
MANN, BENJAMIN BUFFOY
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 296
>>MANN, HARRIET BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 331
MANN, HUGH THOMAS BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 313
MANN, EMMA BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 72
MANN, JANE BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 78
?? MANN, SARAH BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1847 M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 595
MANN, THOMAS BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 71
MANN, JOSEPH THOMAS BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1843 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 63
MANN, HUGH BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 64
MANN, ELIZA BUT...
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 65

Harriet Mann birth registered AMJ 1854 Bethnal Green on freebmd. Cross-refer with GRO for MMN

BUT………her birthplace on censuses after the marriage is Whitechapel, which was a separate RD

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Pedley Street, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (11 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Mann Head Toy Manufacturer
- Male 56 1815 Shadwell Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Wife
- Female 48 1823 - Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Son
- Male 18 1853 - Middlesex, England
Harriett Mann Daughter
- Female 16 1855 - Middlesex, England
Benjamin Mann Son
- Male 15 1856 - Middlesex, England
Ann Mann Daughter
- Female 11 1860 - Middlesex, England
Laura Mann Daughter
- Female 13 1858 - -
Charlotte Mann Daughter
- Female 9 1862 - Middlesex, England
Alice Mann Daughter
- Female 7 1864 - Middlesex, England
Joseph Mann Son
- Male 5 1866 - Middlesex, England
James Boddy Apprentice
- Male 19 1852 - Middlesex, England

Bethnal Green is the place of birth of everyone except Thomas.


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Pedley Street, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (9 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Mann Head
Married Male 46 1815 Toy maker Shadwell, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Wife
Married Female 39 1822 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Son
- Male 8 1853 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Benjamin Mann Son
- Male 14 1847 Toy maker Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Daughter
Unmarried Female 21 1840 Artificial florist Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Jane Mann Daughter
- Female 12 1849 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Louisa Mann Daughter
- Female 12 1849 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Ann Mann Daughter
- Female 3 1858 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Frederick Perrin Apprentice
Unmarried Male 17 1844 Toy maker Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England



1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Fiefs Court, Saint Matthew Bethnal Green, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (7 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Mann Head
Married Male 33 1818 Toy manufacturer Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Wife
Married Female 28 1823 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Daughter
- Female 10 1841 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Sarah Mann Daughter
- Female 4 1847 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Jane Mann Daughter
- Female 2 1849 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Emma Butfoy Sister
Unmarried Female 18 1833 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Harriet Butfoy Sister
- Female 15 1836 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England




1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Spicer Street, Stepney, Whitechapel, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (10 people)
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Morris Barfoot Male 35 1806 Middlesex, England
Sophia Barfoot Female 35 1806 Middlesex, England
Sophia Barfoot Female 12 1829 Middlesex, England
Joseph Barfoot Male 11 1830 Middlesex, England
William Barfoot Male 9 1832 Middlesex, England
James Barfoot Male 5 1836 Middlesex, England
George Barfoot Male 3 1838 Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Male toy maker 25 1816 Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Female 20 1821 Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Female 1 1840 Middlesex, England

He could possibly have sold the wooden things he made (toys etc.) from a handcart which would be consistent with being a hawker.

Kath. x

The Harriet Mann that I have tracked through the censuses with Thomas as a father, The father has been a woodturner or toymaker through the censuses. Her marriage cert says Hawker. Does anyone think that would be the same person?

if anyone is looking at the census to try and help me, they will probably be finding the same problem as me. Her age does not go up in 10 years per census which is not helping.