Genealogy Chat

Hi
I wonder if someone can help me with my gggrandparent's births. I just can't find them.

I have a marriage cert :
Nov 1 1875 Bethnal Green, Middlesex

Henry Stedman, age full, Batchelor, Porter, residing in Bethnal Green, Father - Henry Stedman - Deceased
married
Harriet Mann, age full, Spinster, no occupation, residing in Bethnal Green, Father - Thomas Mann - Hawker.

I have Harriet Stedman's death in 1917 in Hatfield aged 58.
I have Henry James Stedman's death in 1909 in Hatfield aged 59.

I am now stuck. Really need to find their birth certs to go on further. Any help would be really appreciated.
Thanks

You may find that the births simply weren’t registered. There were no penalties until 1875 for not registering
What were their respective birthplaces - as per censuses?
When did Henry acquire a second forename?

Have you found them in the various census.? If so, where do they claim to have been born?

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
24, Essex Street, Mile End Old Town, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Stedman Head Married Male 33 1848 Warehouse porter Kingston on Thames, Surrey, England
Harriett Stedman Wife Married Female 24 1857 - Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
Harriett Stedman Daughter Single Female 5 1876 - Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
Henry Stedman Son Single Male 3 1878 - Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
Thomas Stedman Son Single Male 2 1879 - Whitechapel, Middlesex, England


Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
STEDMAN, THOMAS GEORGE MANN
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 543

STEDMAN, JAMES HENRY MANN
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 534

STEDMAN, HARRIET SARAH ANN MANN
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 512

1881 census

Harriett Stedman
in the 1881 England Census
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Name: Harriett Stedman
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Henry Stedman
Gender: Female
Where Born: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: Hamlet
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 24 Essex St
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration District: Mile End Old Town
Sub registration district: Mile End Old Town, Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 472
Folio: 76
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Stedman 33 born Kingston Surrey
Harriett Stedman 24
Harriett Stedman 5
Henry Stedman 3
Thomas Stedman 2

Thank you for replying.
I have Kingston on thames born for Henry Stedman and Harriet Mann - whitechapel.
As per greyghost who has replied

1911 Harriet also says she was born in Whitechapel, but gives age as only 50

Henry and Harriett's marriage OPR on ancestry.

Married at St James the Great, Middlesex

Witnesses - Ellen Mitchell and Thomas Mann who both signed.

The bride made her mark, groom signed.

1911 census

Name: Harriet Stedman
Age in 1911: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Whitechapel, London, England
Civil Parish: Bishops Hatfield
Search Photos: Search for 'Bishops Hatfield' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Country: England
Street Address: Church Army Rest, Hatfield, Herts
Marital status: Widowed
Occupation: Lodging House Caretaker
Registration District Number: 138
Sub-registration District: Hatfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 06
Piece: 7643
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriet Stedman 50
Winifred Stedman 13
Alexandra Stedman 9
Frederick Stedman 6

if anyone is looking at the census to try and help me, they will probably be finding the same problem as me. Her age does not go up in 10 years per census which is not helping.

The Harriet Mann that I have tracked through the censuses with Thomas as a father, The father has been a woodturner or toymaker through the censuses. Her marriage cert says Hawker. Does anyone think that would be the same person?

He could possibly have sold the wooden things he made (toys etc.) from a handcart which would be consistent with being a hawker.

Kath. x

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Pedley Street, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (11 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Mann Head Toy Manufacturer
- Male 56 1815 Shadwell Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Wife
- Female 48 1823 - Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Son
- Male 18 1853 - Middlesex, England
Harriett Mann Daughter
- Female 16 1855 - Middlesex, England
Benjamin Mann Son
- Male 15 1856 - Middlesex, England
Ann Mann Daughter
- Female 11 1860 - Middlesex, England
Laura Mann Daughter
- Female 13 1858 - -
Charlotte Mann Daughter
- Female 9 1862 - Middlesex, England
Alice Mann Daughter
- Female 7 1864 - Middlesex, England
Joseph Mann Son
- Male 5 1866 - Middlesex, England
James Boddy Apprentice
- Male 19 1852 - Middlesex, England

Bethnal Green is the place of birth of everyone except Thomas.


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Pedley Street, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (9 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Mann Head
Married Male 46 1815 Toy maker Shadwell, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Wife
Married Female 39 1822 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Son
- Male 8 1853 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Benjamin Mann Son
- Male 14 1847 Toy maker Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Daughter
Unmarried Female 21 1840 Artificial florist Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Jane Mann Daughter
- Female 12 1849 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Louisa Mann Daughter
- Female 12 1849 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Ann Mann Daughter
- Female 3 1858 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Frederick Perrin Apprentice
Unmarried Male 17 1844 Toy maker Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England



1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Fiefs Court, Saint Matthew Bethnal Green, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (7 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Mann Head
Married Male 33 1818 Toy manufacturer Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Wife
Married Female 28 1823 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Daughter
- Female 10 1841 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Sarah Mann Daughter
- Female 4 1847 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Jane Mann Daughter
- Female 2 1849 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Emma Butfoy Sister
Unmarried Female 18 1833 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Harriet Butfoy Sister
- Female 15 1836 Silk winder Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England




1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Spicer Street, Stepney, Whitechapel, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (10 people)
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Morris Barfoot Male 35 1806 Middlesex, England
Sophia Barfoot Female 35 1806 Middlesex, England
Sophia Barfoot Female 12 1829 Middlesex, England
Joseph Barfoot Male 11 1830 Middlesex, England
William Barfoot Male 9 1832 Middlesex, England
James Barfoot Male 5 1836 Middlesex, England
George Barfoot Male 3 1838 Middlesex, England
Thomas Mann Male toy maker 25 1816 Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Female 20 1821 Middlesex, England
Eliza Mann Female 1 1840 Middlesex, England

Harriet Mann birth registered AMJ 1854 Bethnal Green on freebmd. Cross-refer with GRO for MMN

BUT………her birthplace on censuses after the marriage is Whitechapel, which was a separate RD

MANN, JOHN JOSEPH BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 341
MANN, CHARLOTTE BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 311
MANN, ANN BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 331
MANN, LOUISA BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 337
MANN, BENJAMIN BUFFOY
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 296
>>MANN, HARRIET BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 331
MANN, HUGH THOMAS BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 313
MANN, EMMA BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 72
MANN, JANE BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 78
?? MANN, SARAH BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1847 M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 595
MANN, THOMAS BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 71
MANN, JOSEPH THOMAS BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1843 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 63
MANN, HUGH BUTFOY
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 64
MANN, ELIZA BUT...
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 65

Name: Eliza Bulfoy
Gender: Female
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 20 Apr 1840
Marriage Place: St Leonard, Shoreditch, Hackney, England
Father:
Wm Bulfoy
Spouse:
Thomas Mann
Register Type: Parish Register

They were both of full age and both of Cock Lane. He was a turner, father was Hugh, a revenue officer.
She was a machine winder, father William, a weaver was deceased.
She made her mark, he signed. Hugh Mann and Mary? were witnesses.

In 1881, Thomas Mann, Bethnal Green, was still a TOY MANUFACTURER, as he was in 1871

Is there an address for the bride on the marriage cert?

First name(s) Henry James
County Hertfordshire
Last name Stedman
Country England
Age 59
Record set Hertfordshire Burials
Birth year 1850
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Burial year 1909
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 18 Sep 1909
Collections from England, Great Britain
Place Hatfield

Address was Church Army Rest, same as the 1911 census for Harriet.

ErikaH, Thomas and Eliza were both in Cock Lane on the MC, no numbers.

If it's Henry and Harriet's Mc, then it just says Bethnal Green.

Thanks - I did mean the 1875 one.

First name(s) Harriet
County Hertfordshire
Last name Stedman
Country England
Age 58
Record set Hertfordshire Burials
Birth year 1859
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Burial year 1917
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 28 Dec 1917
Collections from England, Great Britain
Place Hatfield

Address was Mill Green.

1911 census shows she had had 15 children!!! 4 of whom had died.