Genealogy Chat

I did read the first page but other marriages were also suggested so I followed through on what looks like the right marriages

Did check for William but couldn’t find him as a brother but assumed he couid be family connected

It was just to keep things on what seems to be the right track

:-D

Most (all?) of the above was already posted on page 1.

So I might as well also repeat that William Flatman in the 1861 census is NOT Maria's brother.

Repeating his birth record from page 1:

FLATMAN, WILLIAM mmn COLMAN
GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 13 Page 49

Maria's mother's mn was West. Some of Maria's siblings' births are listed on
page 1.

1891 census

Maria Hayden
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Maria Hayden
Gender: Female
Age: 54
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1837
Spouse:
Isaac Hayden
Birth Place: Norfolk, England
Civil parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Residence Place: Plaistow, West Ham, Essex, England
Registration district: West Ham
Sub registration district: West Ham
ED, Institution or Vessel: 51
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1328
Folio: 112
Household Members Age Relationship
Isaac Hayden
50 Head
Maria Hayden 54 Wife


Isaac Hayden
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Death Registration Place: West Ham, Essex, United Kingdom
Death Date: Jun 1897
Inferred Death Place: Essex, United Kingdom
Volume: 4a
Page: 16


And possibly

Deaths Mar 1918
Hayden Maria 84 W.Ham 4a 62

Now a widow

Name: Maria Mori
[Maria Flatman]
[Maria Moore]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 51
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1835
Marriage Date: 11 Oct 1886
Marriage Place: St Paul, Bow Common, Tower Hamlets, England
Father:
Thomas Flatman >>>>>>
Spouse:
Isaac Hayden
Register Type: Parish Register

Name: Ellen Moore
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1861
Marriage Date: 8 Oct 1882
Marriage Place: St Thomas, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England
Father:
William Moore occ engineer
Spouse:
George Girling
Register Type: Parish Register

in the 1871 England Census
Name: Myna Messe
[Myna Moore]
[Maria Moore]
[Moore]
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: 1835
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Thorpe Abbotts, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: Ipswich St Mary Stoke
Town: Ipswich
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England
Registration district: Ipswich
Sub-registration district: St Matthew
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 28
Piece: 1751
Folio: 103
Page number: 5
Household Members Age Relationship
William Moore occ engine driver
40 Head
Myna Messe 36 Wife
Ellen Messe
9 Daughter
Alice Messe
5 Daughter
James Messe
1 Son

Mid transcription name is Moore

Births

MOORE, ALICE FLATMAN
GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in BLYTHING Volume 04A Page 618


MOORE, ELLEN FLATMAN
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in BLYTHING Volume 04A Page 585

Surely this is the first marriage and she has a possible brother living with them

William Moore
in the 1861 England Census
Name: William Moore
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: 1831
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Maria Moore
Gender: Male
Where Born: Syleham, Suffolk, England
Civil Parish: Leiston
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Blything
Sub-registration District: Westleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 105
Piece: 1178
Folio: 95
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
William Moore 30
Maria Moore 26
Emma Moore 3
William Flatman 19 boarder
William Croft 19

Florence, that William and Maria whose children you listed are incorrect.

If you check the GRO site birth index, there are 4 Howard births mmn Flatman in the period 1851-1861 that I could readily find.

Namely Rebecca 1851, George 1857, Ada 1859, and Frederick 1861.

No sign of the Howard children you listed with mmn Flatman.

This tallies with a family of Howards living in Church Rd Wortham in 1861 census. He is aged 38, Maria aged 45, both born Wortham.

That tallies with the baptism of a Maria Flatman baptised Jan 1816 Wortham, daur of JAMES Flatman and Elizabeth Rolfe.

Can't cut and paste as on tablet, but will try and dm you the image of baptism .

To conclude, the William and Maria Howard you found in the census are not the couple who married in 1850, and the Maria Flatman who married William Howard in 1850 was the daughter of a JAMES Flatman, not THOMAS Flatman.

If people post info which fits the criteria, why dismiss it?

My post was born out of exasperation

See also the details of the records re Maria Moore, nee Flatman.
For example, place of birth shown on the censuses - Thorpe Abbott.

Erika, excuse me but I have indeed looked at all the info. i had already explored that marriage firstly but then dismissed it for several reasons.

I am always extremely grateful for any help and only ever ask when im really stuck.

I am trying to cut down on ordering certificates where possible as its expensive and this tree i am doing for a friend is extremely huge. Sometimes the only way to be exact is to order. i cant do that until next week when the offices are open again.

When people suddenly appear in areas away from where they were born, you always ask yourself how would they travel back in say 1871. Very few people travelled, they didnt have cars. So whilst there is a possibility of a marriage happening 100 miles away from where they were born, i always approach with caution looking nearer to home.

Of course i shall look again at all the info and yes maybe you are correct but please dont speak to me in the tone you have just now.

If & when i get the certs, I shall of course come back & let you know what I found out.

Thankyou for all your help

Florence in the hebrides

You need to at least LOOK at the marriage info I posted………..and the info which greyghost posted

Original shows that that Maria born West Lexham which is much further North in Norfolk than Thorpe Abbott - don't think it's your Maria.

The census you refer to -

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Fen Road, Tilney St Lawrence, Wisbech, Norfolk, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Howard Head - Male 48 1823 - Norfolk, England
Maria Howard Wife - Female 35 1836 - West Lexham, Norfolk, England
William Howard Son - Male 17 1854 - Downham, Norfolk, England
Eliza Howard Daughter - Female 14 1857 - Marham, Norfolk, England
Caroline Howard Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Marham, Norfolk, England
Daniel Howard Son - Male 4 1867 - Flitcham, Norfolk, England

also says Lexham on the 1861 and children's mmn Seaman (Wm reg'd as Wm Seaman Howard)

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1855 (>99%)
Howard William Freebridge L 4b 931
HOWELL Elizabeth Freebridge L 4b 931
SEAMAN Maria Freebridge L 4b 931
TURNER James Freebridge L 4b 931

Hi again.
Well I have just worked my way through the list of possible marriages and i think I have cracked it...hopefully

Marriage of Maria Flatman to William Howard 1850 Hartismere.
Maria's family are all around this area. he was born 1823 Norfolk so a bit older than her but i find them on the census in
1861 Downham
1871 Wisbeach
children

William Howard b 1855
Eliza Howard b 1858
Caroline Howard b 1862
Daniel Howard b 1867

I am positive this is the right marriage.

I took the marriages from free BMD.

I could order the cert to check her parents but ill leave that for now.

Process of elimination and cross checking the census.
Thankyou for all your suggestions.

No clue why i didnt look at freeBMD for a list of marriages the first time as I normally do!!

Florence in the hebrides

Possible death as she was in West Ham on previous census

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1918 (>99%)
Hayden Maria 84 W.Ham 4a 62


HAYDEN, MARIA
buried on: 09 February 1918
recorded at: West Ham Cemetery (Newham)

Maria's first marriage

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1853 (>99%)
FLATMAN Maria Hoxne 4a 665
MOORE William Hoxne 4a 665

Name: Ellen Moore
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1861
Marriage Date: 8 Oct 1882
Marriage Place: St Thomas, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: William Moore
Spouse: George Girling
Register Type: Parish Register

from image -
George 29 Bachelor Labourer go 16 Globe Street, Father john a Carpenter
Ellen 21, spinster, no occupation. Of 7 Globe Street, Father an Engineer

witnesses - William ?Abeney and Emma Hall

1911 - has her born Thorpe Abbott !!!

1911 Census For England & Wales
68 Holbrook R Plaistow E, West Ham, London & Essex, England

First name(s) Maria
Last name Hayden
Sex Female
Birth year 1835
Age 76
Relationship to head Head
Marital status Widow
Occupation None private means
Birth place Thorp Abbot Norfolk
Full address 68 Holbrook R Plaistow E, West Ham, London & Essex, England
Parish West HamRegistration district West Ham
County London, Essex
Registration district number 188
Sub district Plaistow
Sub district number 3Country England
Enumeration district 17

Archive series RG14
Piece number 9427
Schedule 127

Census reference RG14PN9427 RG78PN507A RD188 SD3 ED17 SN127

Only says Norfolk for Maria, not where in Norfolk

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Beale Street, West Ham, London & Essex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Isaac Hayden Head Married Male 50 1841 General labourer London, Middlesex, England
Maria Hayden Wife Married Female 54 1837 Charwoman Norfolk, England

and again 1901 - says N/K, Norfolk

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
67, Burrard Road, West Ham, London & Essex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Girling Head Married Male 50 1851 Dock laborer Plaistow, Essex, England
Ellen Girling Wife Married Female 39 1862 - Norfolk, England
Ethel Girling Daughter Single Female 15 1886 - Plaistow, Essex, England
William Girling Son Single Male 13 1888 General laborer Plaistow, Essex, England
Phyllis Girling Daughter Single Female 4 1897 - Plaistow, Essex, England
Maria Hayden Mother-in-law Widow Female 67 1834 - Norfolk, England

--------------------------
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1882 (>99%)
Girling George Bethnal Green 1c 633
MOORE Ellen Bethnal Green 1c 633

More details from the 1886 marriage posted by ErikaH

From image -
Isaac 45 a Widower and Labourer s/o Isaac a Labourer
Maria - 51 a Widow d/o Thomas Flatman a Labourer
Both of 41 ? Tanners Road
both made their mark
Witnesses - John and Catherine Hayden

Maria's surname has been spelt Moir but as she made her mark and probably had an East Anglian accent !