Genealogy Chat

Sorry its been so very long in replying, things happened but back now..
I am going to write about a number of the replies you all kindly sent

Jose was returned to the uk because they did not inform the Canadian authorities
she was Epileptic and she had no one here to care for her so she put into a home for mentally ill.
Jose went into St Elizabeths as my gran never looked after her children her 2 brothers were put into a boarding school, and 1st son was given away.
I never new what happened to my grandfather or how long gran was with him, Ernest was not Jose father.
George Jose fathers surname was spelt as Simms Many thanks for your replies

SylviaInCanada

Thank you for your help

ArgyllGran

On Ernest Death Cert Informant is L G Butt 18, May Street, West Kensington
Thank you so much for your help

AustinQ

Wow the information you have given me is a shock i new my gran was a bit of a dadada person one strong lady.

thank you

SylvainCanada
I have not found anything with Ernest and Marjorie only on Clarence birth cert 1923,
Anthony was born in Lyminge Kent.
Jose went to Canada to be with gran but they did not state that Jose was Epileptic she had a number of fits and was sent back to the UK.
I did not know where Jose went when she came back to uk.

All i know was she went into a home near Wanstead where she died

Malyon
We think only 2 children Clarence and maybe my dad Anthony were Ernest children, on Clarence birth cert Ernest and Marjorie were at same address then nothing for Anthony he was born in Lyminge Kent. Patrick and Jose we know were different fathers.

Birmingham Daily Post - Tuesday 07 May 1940

Prison for Housebreaking

On a charge of housebreaking, Annie Henderson Smart (28), waitress, was sentenced to twelve months imprisonment; Marjorie Louise Butt (34), saleswoman, to six months imprisonment, and Albert Edward Lorford (39), builder, to twelve months imprisonment without hard labour. It was stated that the value of the articles stolen was £lOO. Goods of the value of £8O had been recovered.
----------------------------------------

Birmingham Daily Post - Friday 29 March 1940

ALLEGED THEFT FROM A BUNGALOW
Two single women and a man were committed for trial at Birmingham Police Court yesterday on a charge of breaking and entering a bungalow, 34, Greenland Road, Selly Park, on March 6 and stealing articles of clothing, a typewriter and a camera, valued at £lOO. The accused were; Marjorie Butt (34), giving an address in Edward Road, Birmingham; Ann Henderson Smart (27), 9, Sandford Road, Moseley; and Albert Lawford (37), Edward Road, Birmingham.

Small point- on the 1929 electoral register surnames are listed as Simmons:

Year 1929
Address: 143 Southcote Road
Polling district or place East Cliff
Constituency P B of Bournemouth
Constituency in full Parliamentary Borough of Bournemouth
County Dorset:-

Louisa Jochinsen
Lawrence Blow
Arthur Benjamin Cruickshank
Frederick Lloyd Bidgood
Bethia Lawrence Bidgood
Jane Ethel Blundell
Catherine Pringle
George William Simmons<<<<<<<<
Marjoria Louise Simmons<<<<<<<

1929 is the only year I see George and Marjorie at this address

AG ....................

I was using FMP for the 1939 Register.

Sylvia, you say Ernest is with Lily Jennings in 1939.

I can't see that at all on Ancestry - where were they living?

However, I have found this:

Ernest W Butt
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Ernest W Butt
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 30 Sep 1902
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 18 May Street <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Residence Place: Fulham, London, England
Occupation: Ro?? Glazier
Schedule Number: 13
Sub Schedule Number: 5
Enumeration District: AGAR
Registration district: 4-1
Household Members:
Name
Lily R Gould
Ernest W Butt

On Ancestry, this Ernest's name is transcribed, but he's still blacked out n the image.
There are no other closed records with them.
Lily Gould's name has not been altered to Butt on the image (or Jennings, for that matter ) - although I see the alternative name of Lily R Butt has been added to the transcription.



EDIT:

Aha! I see now that the whole record has been transcribed wrongly on Ancestry.
Lilly R Gould is higher up the page (at 12 May Street) than Lily Jennings at No 18, whose name has indeed been changed to Butt, with 3 closed records below her name, and Ernest W Butt below that.

The transcriber has put Ernest with the wrong Lily.
No wonder I couldn't find them together!

I've submitted a correction to Ancestry.

??

Marriages Sep 1952 (>99%)
Butt Ernest W Jennings Fulham 5c 1297
JENNINGS Lilian G BUTT Fulham 5c 1297

Interesting ......

....... Ernest Wilson is on the 1939 register living with a Lily Jennings, whose surname has been crossed out and replaced with Butt, plus 3 blacked out records.

In the Electoral Roll that cazcove has on her Tree, Ernest is living with Lilian Jennings.

That would indicate to me that the marriage was over before Jose was born, though whether separated or officially divorced needs to be sorted.


Where the 3 blacked out records on the 1939 Register the 3 children of Ernest and Marjorie? They would not be opened as they all presumably died in Canada.

According to a Public Family Tree on Ancestry which is apparently cazcove's so she does know most of what we have found.

Marjorie Louise Robinson was living in Kent as Single, in 1939

She remarried in 1945 in Birmingham to Clayton Thomas Mason. Her address then was in Birmingham

She died in 1998 in London, Ontario, and her ashes were scattered in Bournemouth.


Is that why Jose went to Canada????????????




It looks as though Ernest and Marjorie had separated by the time that Jose was born, therefore her mother was just ebing honest on that birth certificate.


Jose's surname was Butt because that was her mother's legal name, but her father was not Ernest.

Her father was George William, but he and Marjorie were not married and Marjorie was obviously not willing to lie either by saying Ernest was the father OR by saying her surname was Sim(m)s.


This explains the birth certificate, but doesn't help in finding George William!

St Elizabeth's:

https://www.stelizabeths.org.uk/about-us/about-st-elizabeths/history-of-st-elizabeths/

She went to Canada in 1953 and returned in 1959;

Jose V Butt
in the UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
Name: Jose V Butt
Arrival Age: 29
Birth Date: 12 Sep 1929
Port of Departure: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Arrival Date: 26 Jul 1959
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Montreal
Ship Name: Arkadia
Shipping Line: Greek Line
Official Number: 0247/60

She was a seamstress.

In view of your last post, Sylvia, it's interesting that her proposed address was Warley Hospital, Brentwood, Essex.

Warley Hospital was a hospital for the mentally ill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warley_Hospital


When she went to Canada in 1953 her address had been 6 Warrington Gdns, London W9.

Jose Butt
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Jose Butt
Gender: Female
Age: 24
Birth Date: abt 1929
Departure Date: 17 Oct 1953
Port of Departure: Southampton, England
Destination Port: Quebec, Canada
Ship Name: Columbia
Shipping Line: Greek Line
Official Number: 5106
Master: Demetrios Sigalas

I was puzzled by the fact that Jose was seemingly on her own on that 1939 Register, so I looked more closely ............ I had to go back to page 1 of 5 to discover the following .........

Jose was apparently at St Elizabeth's House for Epileptics, Perry Green, Much Hadham, Herts.


Does that make any sense to you???????

Butt was your grandmother's legal name, and therefore any child born to her would have that name whether or not Ernest Butt was the father.

She was being honest in admitting on the certificate that George William Sim(s) was the father.

If she had not said that then Ernest would have been assumed to be the father ........... and you would never have known otherwise.


It might be interesting to find out where Ernest was ............. had the marriage broken up?

Jose Butt (Woodsward)'s life in 1939 (should read Woodward)
Perry Green, Braughing R.D., Hertfordshire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Jose Butt (Woodsward) 12 Sep 1929 Female At School Single 1 191

so ernest butt was the father

Boatman - oh well, not the teacher, then!