Genealogy Chat

1891:

Sarah Jones
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Sarah Jones
Gender: Female
Age: 63
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1828
Child: Henry Jones
Birth Place: Surrey, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Barton upon Irwell
Residence Place: South Barton, Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire, England
Sub registration district: Barton
ED, Institution or Vessel: 22
Neighbors:
Piece: 3156
Folio: 97
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Jones 63
Henry Jones 19 - son, Finchley, London
Frances Jones 19 - daughter-in-law
Sarah A Cooper 10 - grand-daughter, Bury, Lancs.
Mary Cooper 7 - grand-daughter, Wavertree


The grand-daughters are siblings of Minnie Cooper 1881:

COOPER, MARY ELIZABETH mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 661


COOPER, SARAH ANN mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in BURY LANCASHIRE Volume 08C Page 531



Here's Sarah Ann with her mother Emma Cooper (nee Jones) in 1881:

Sarah A. Cooper
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Sarah A. Cooper
Relationship to Head: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Bury, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: North Meols
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 107 Sefton St
Registration district: Ormskirk
ED, institution, or vessel: 28
Neighbors:
Piece: 3751
Folio: 124
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
John Thomas Jones 38 - Head, Chapel En Le Frith, Derbyshire
Eliza A. Jones 30 - wife - Wandsworth
Martha Jones 12 - daughter, Barnet
George Jones 11 - son
John J. Jones 2 - son [ John T Jones, I think ] Town Green, Lancs
Emma Cooper 20 - Watford, married, sister-in-law
Sarah A. Cooper - Bury
William Jones 14 - Streatham, Surrey - brother


I haven't worked out how John Thomas Jones can be Emma's brother-in-law.

EDIT:
Oh, I see, he married a Jones.
Eliza A Jones is Emma's sister Eliza Ann, sometimes known just as Ann.

JONES, MARTHA ANNIE mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in BARNET Volume 03A Page 136

JONES, GEORGE mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 423

JONES, JOHN THOMAS mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 746

John Thomas Jones
in the Lancashire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1911
Name: John Thomas Jones
Baptism Date: 26 Jan 1879
Parish: Aughton, St Michael, Lancashire, England
Father: John Thomas Jones
Mother: Ann Jones
Register Type: Parish Registers
Reference Number: Pr 3019/1/6

Emma / Eliza/ John's family in 1881.

Crookham, Dogmersfield, and Crondall are all in the same area of NE Hants.


Sarah Jones
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Sarah Jones
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1828
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: George Jones
Gender: Female
Where born: Crookham, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Penwortham
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Middleforth Green
Marital status: Married
Registration district: Preston
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Piece: 4223
Folio: 19
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
George Jones 55 - ganger on railway - Crookham
Sarah Jones 53
Minnie Jones 17 - London, daughter
Henry Jones 9 - London, son


JONES, HENRY mms MAY
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in BARNET Volume 03A Page 166

Don't know who Minnie is, unless she's Martha (or one of the two Martha's ??) with wrong YOB.

Many thanks to you all for your imput. I am away for a few days as from Monday so I will study all the information when I return.
Once again thank you

???

Marriages Jun 1849 (>99%)
Jones George Bath 11 72
MAY Sarah Bath 11 72


EDIT:

No, that's this family:

Frederick Jones
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Frederick Jones
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: 1850
Relation: Son
Father's name: George Jones
Mother's name: Sarah Jones
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Walcot Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Walcot Trinity
Town: Bath
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Bath
Sub-registration district: Lansdown
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 201
Piece: 1693
Folio: 105
Page Number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
George Jones 36
Sarah Jones 35
Susan Jones 11
Frederick Jones 11
George Jones 1

JONES, ROBERT FREDERICK GEORGE mms MAY
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in BATH Volume 11 Page 49

JONES, SUSANNA mms MAY
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in BATH Volume 11 Page 47

Re mms May for Emma 1861, and her mother Sarah's birthplace of Dogmersfield, Hants (per 1861 census):


Sarah May
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Sarah May
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Dogmersfield
Hundred: Odiham (Middle Half)
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hartley Wintney
Sub-registration district: Odiham and Crondall
Neighbors:
Piece: 394
Book: 9
Folio: 9
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizebeth May 45
James May 20
Sarah May 15
Mary May 12

??


John Robert Jones
in the 1861 England Census
Name: John Robert Jones
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: 1854
Relation: Son
Father's name: George Jones
Mother's name: Sarah Jones
Gender: Male
Where born: Richmond, Surrey, England <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Watford
Town: Watford
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Watford
Sub-registration district: Watford
ED, institution, or vessel: 8b
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 33
Piece: 834
Folio: 16
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
George Jones 35 - agricultural labourer
Sarah Jones 33
Eliza Ann Jones 12
Elizabeth Mary Jones 10
John Robert Jones 7
James Jones 5
Martha Jones 2
Emma Jones 1/12 - Watford, Herts <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<



John Jones
in the 1871 England Census
Name: John Jones
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's name: George Jones
Mother's name: Sarah Jones
Gender: Male
Where born: N
Civil Parish: Tottenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Tottenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Household schedule number: 194
Piece: 1340
Folio: 176
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
George Jones 45 - ganger of navvies
Sarah Jones 44
John Jones 18
James Jones 16
William Jones 5
George Jones 1
Ann Jones 22
Elizabeth Jones 20
Emma Jones 10 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Eliza Jones 7 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Martha Jones 3
Thomas Jones 28 - brother


???
JONES, EMMA mms MAY
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 299

But . . . .
JONES, JOHN TATE
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in RICHMOND SURREY Volume 02A Page 186

Re the 1878 Aughton marriage of James Cooper and Emma Jones -
Emma's address was Aughton, and father George Jones, labourer.

The marriage just before theirs was on 30 Sept 1878.
John Jones, 25, labourer, Aughton, father George Jones, labourer.
married Elizabeth Martland, 37, widow.

Was John a brother of Emma?



Elizabeth Martland in 1871:

Elizabeth Martland
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Martland
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Richard Martland
Gender: Female
Where born: Aughton, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Aughton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Ormskirk
Sub-registration district: Aughton
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 4
Piece: 3870
Folio: 47
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Martland 30
Elizabeth Martland 30
Thomas Martland 6
William Martland 4
Margaret Martland 2
Mary Martland 2 Months
Mary Linford 10 - cousin

Richard Martland
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Richard Martland
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Registration Year: 1877
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 36
Registration district: Ormskirk
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 491

The Jones family in 1881, with three of the Martland children now called Jones:

Elizabeth Jones
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Jones
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: John Jones
Gender: Female
Where born: Aughton, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Wavertree
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Stevenson St
Marital status: Married
Registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 3717
Folio: 107
Page Number: 41
Household Members:
Name Age
John Jones 27 - born Richmond, Surrey
Elizabeth Jones 39
William M. Jones 13
Margaret Jones 12
Mary Jones 10
Elizabeth Jones 7
John R. Jones


John being born in Richmond, Surrey, would fit more or less with Eliza being born in London, and therefore presumably with Emma also being born there.

Possible sibling of Minnie ??

Birth:
COOPER, JAMES mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 659

Deaths Jun 1884 (>99%)
Cooper James 0 West Derby 8b 457

Minnie (E) Knowles on the 1939 Register

1939 Register Transcription

Knowles Household (3 People) 13 Newgate Lane , Preston R.D., Lancashire, England
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First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Minnie (E) Knowles 10 Aug 1881 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 355 2
Henry Knowles 21 Feb 1877 Male Farm Labourer Married 355 1

????

Record Transcription:
1911 Census For England & Wales

2 Newgate Whitestake Farington Near Preston, Farington, Lancashire, England
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Minnie Knowles's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Knowles Head Married Male 34 1877 Farm Labourer Longton Lancashire
Minnie Knowles Wife Married Female 29 1882 - Liverpool Lancashire
Ellen Knowles Daughter - Female 1 1910

To recap -

You said that the 1891 census showing Minnie with the Sowerbutts family was the correct one.

In 1901 she is still in the Walton-le-Dale area, which is in the Preston reg district, as Farington also is (where she married):

Minnie E Cooper
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Minnie E Cooper
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Niece
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Walton le Dale
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviou
Town: Lostock Hall
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Walton-le-Dale
ED, institution, or vessel: 06
Neighbors:
Piece: 3956
Folio: 111
Page Number: 9
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Sowerbutts 7
Minnie E Cooper 19

The Minnie born 1881 in West Derby reg district is the only Minnie E Cooper born in Lancashire 1880-82.
Her mms is Jones, which also fits with the 1891 census where she's the niece of Eliza (nee Jones) and Joseph Sowerbutts.

The 1878 Aughton St Michael marriage posted by Choccy is the Ormskirk one I posted.

Wavertree is an area of Liverpool, but at that time came under the West Derby reg district, so the birth is the correct one, and also the baptism.

Eliza Sowerbutts (nee Jones) was born in London (per 1891 and 1901 census) and married in West Ham. 1911 census says she was born in Camden Town.
So presumably Emma Jones was also born in London, and George Jones was father of both of them.

Can't see any such family, though!

The 1891 census show Minnie as 17 meaning that she would be born about 1874 and having a look at the Lancashire BMD she was born in Failsworth which is Manchester but my Minnie was born 1881. The maiden name of the Minnie born in 1874 was Sidlow. Maybe Clara was a cousin and not a sister.

James the father of Minnie born in 1874 would be born about 1846.
All so confusing. Why did relatives not have the nous not to use the same names.
I think all children should have two Christian names. It would make things much easier for the likes of us.

Birth:

COOPER, MINNIE ELIZA mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 643

Possible parents:

Marriages Dec 1881 (>99%)
COOPER James Henry W Derby 8b 757
JONES Mary Emma W. Derby 8b 757


Or these:

Marriages Dec 1878 (>99%)
COOPER James Ormskirk 8b 1033
JONES Emma Ormskirk 8b 1033

this looks like the cooper family in 1891 there is a clara and minnie could be the mother emma had died


Clara Cooper
England and Wales Census, 1891


Name: Clara Cooper
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
County: Lancashire
Parish: Failsworth
Ecclesiastical Parish: ST JOHNS FAILSWORTH
Registration District: Prestwich
Residence Note: Evening Street
Gender: Female
Age: 12
Occupation: Scholar
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated): 1879
Birthplace: Lancashire, England
Page Number: 17
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 3267/ 87
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
James Cooper Head Male 45 Lancashire, England
Willie Cooper Son Male 19 Lancashire, England
Minnie Cooper Daughter Female 17 Lancashire, England
Melena Cooper Daughter Female 14 Lancashire, England
Clara Cooper Daughter Female 12 Lancashire, England
Ruby Cooper Daughter Female 10 Lancashire, England
Sidlow Cooper Son Male 7 Lancashire, England
Edward Cooper Son Male 4 Lancashire, England

Lancashire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936


Name: James Cooper

Gender: Male

Age: 26

Birth Year: abt 1852

Event Type: Marriage

Event Date: 20 Nov 1878

Parish: Aughton, St Michael, Lancashire, England

Spouse: Emma Jones

Spouse Age: 18

Father: John Cooper

Spouse Father: George Jones

Register Type: Parish Register

this could be the marriage of joseph and eliza sowerbutts

Marriages Dec 1884 (>99%)

JONES Eliza W. Ham 4a 36
Sowerbutts Joseph W. Ham 4a 36

I have looked on the Lancashire b.m.d and found the James Cooper who died Walton Le Dale 1885 but he was aged 1 at death so not Minnie’s father.

I have looked on the b.m.d for the marriage of James and Emma and found an Emma Livingston marrying a James Cooper in Liverpool 1881. Wavertree is an area of Liverpool but I wonder if I’m clutching at straws.

I also can’t find Minnie or Minnie Eliza on the Lancashire B.M.D and I don’t know why.

Sorry malyon our replies seemed to have crossed.

Just need the marriage of her parents now and if she had any siblings.
Thank you.

Her marriage certificate has her listed as just Minnie but you have the right one as Richard Sowerbutts is listed on the certificate as a witness as is Clara Cooper who I thought might be her sister. It seems that Minnie is the niece of Joseph and Eliza but I’m not sure how they fit in the tree as yet.

Now I have to find out when James married her mother Emma and when James died.
Thank you

James Cooper
England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991

Name: James Cooper
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 21 Jan 1885
Burial Place: Walton-Le-Dale, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: John Cooper